654 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 22, 2001
Hi all,
I'm reverting back to a couple of previous lengthy thread discussions initiated by a collector who owns an old vintage C89 timepiece.
As I posted before, though I'm not a collector myself, I respect the fierce determination, effort, time, and money many invest in collecting old and special timepieces. So, when the owner who posted was anxious to get to the bottom of the facts whether his old timepiece is authentic I suggested that the only way to find out for sure was for us to send it to the IWC factory.
Well, indeed off it went to Schaffhausen and, finally, kudos to the expert detective work the watch has been now confirmed by IWC to be a FAKE.
Here' the official e-mail I received today (edited for typos and confidentiality by me):
Dear Jack,
I spoke with Mr. ----- regarding the watch of the above mentioned repair job. He told me to hand it over to Mr. -----, who is our specialist for antique watches. Mr. ---- found out that the case of this watch is not genuine. The "Probus Scafusia" stamp has a clerical error, "Scafucia" is written instead of "Scafusia". Therefore we can not do any repair.
We will send back this watch unrepaired in the next few days.
Thank you for your understanding.
Kind regards, IWC Customer Service
It is interesting to note that nobody on the internet forums, as well as myself, was able to catch this engraving mistake perhaps because the photos posted were not sharp and clear. I confess and am embarrassed that, as an experienced IWC watchmaker, I didn't flag it when I had the case in my hands.
I believe this is superb testimony to IWC how far they scrutinize each watch for authenticity and a great lesson for all vintage collectors and/or forum readers.
Regards, Jack Freedman
I've attached a link to one of the previous posts on this forum about the mentioned watch.
3,732 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 28, 2001
A golden fake
If people go into the effort to fake a golden watch, it really makes you wonder if the gold is really gold. If so, what is the point for the faker, as even the fake must have quite some value?
I am not quite sure that I caught the lesson to be learned. Although not mentioned here, I cannot come with another lesson besides that you really have to be careful from whom you are buying your watch from.
23 Discussions and CommentsMember since Feb. 12, 2009
Many lessons
First I would like to thank Jack of superior watch and IWC for their intense pro bono work in getting to the bottom of this, it is a testimony to IWC as a brand committed to collectors and its history. The person who faked this watch probably used another watche's vintage case that fit the same size as the Cal 89 thogh I cannot be sure. So for example it could have been some other brand. They put the cal 89 movement into the other brand's watch case because IWC watches are more valuable.
The lesson learned here is significant. I have been collecting for over a decade and have a significant investment in my collection by any measure. I can tell you that I never would have expected the `level` of effort that went into faking this case. I bought this watch approximately 8 years ago. While there are many fake cases and recases around of one watch or another, the effort made here is a lesson learned. The lesson is that one should not understimate, even in an older watch, the effort one might have gone to in `order` to raise the value of a vintage watch. I realize recasing and franken-watches are NOTHING new. What I am saying here is that, for an IWC Cal 89 like this, it comes from left field. It isn't a recased pocket watch or a cool interesting aviator that was monster'ed up. It was a standard IWC Cal 89 in what is a beautiful case for that matter complete with service markings going back 30 years. Very very unexpected.
23 Discussions and CommentsMember since Feb. 12, 2009
For those interested, 1st post w/lots of pictures
Jack referenced a follow-on post with the back. Here is a post showing full pictures and highlighting how convincing this old vintage counterfeit is. Scroll down to my followon posts you will see in this thread as I had to repost some pictures so that they would appear on the site.
670 Discussions and CommentsMember since Sept. 13, 2002
IWC Counterfeit - a confession & a lesson
Hello Jack, Have you checked the other gold variants with this light case signature do not have a mis-spelt Scafucia. It may be intresting if they do...especially if the numberings marry to each other and could indicate an error with a contract casemaker way back when. I'd imagine it would be hard to source an hallmarked gold case completely devoid of makers signature to pull this trick with (and especially one so close to the style used by Schaffhausen). Makes you wonder if the case would have been deemed correct if a letter 'S' had have been used...Just thinking out loud...thanks for highlighting the anomaly.
I'm reverting back to a couple of previous lengthy thread discussions initiated by a collector who owns an old vintage C89 timepiece.
As I posted before, though I'm not a collector myself, I respect the fierce determination, effort, time, and money many invest in collecting old and special timepieces. So, when the owner who posted was anxious to get to the bottom of the facts whether his old timepiece is authentic I suggested that the only way to find out for sure was for us to send it to the IWC factory.
Well, indeed off it went to Schaffhausen and, finally, kudos to the expert detective work the watch has been now confirmed by IWC to be a FAKE.
Here' the official e-mail I received today (edited for typos and confidentiality by me):
Dear Jack,
I spoke with Mr. ----- regarding the watch of the above mentioned repair job. He told me to hand it over to Mr. -----, who is our specialist for antique watches. Mr. ---- found out that the case of this watch is not genuine. The "Probus Scafusia" stamp has a clerical error, "Scafucia" is written instead of "Scafusia". Therefore we can not do any repair.
We will send back this watch unrepaired in the next few days.
Thank you for your understanding.
Kind regards,
IWC Customer Service
It is interesting to note that nobody on the internet forums, as well as myself, was able to catch this engraving mistake perhaps because the photos posted were not sharp and clear. I confess and am embarrassed that, as an experienced IWC watchmaker, I didn't flag it when I had the case in my hands.
I believe this is superb testimony to IWC how far they scrutinize each watch for authenticity and a great lesson for all vintage collectors and/or forum readers.
Regards,
Jack Freedman
I've attached a link to one of the previous posts on this forum about the mentioned watch.
https://www.iwc.com/member/forum/display.asp?id=183619
If people go into the effort to fake a golden watch, it really makes you wonder if the gold is really gold. If so, what is the point for the faker, as even the fake must have quite some value?
I am not quite sure that I caught the lesson to be learned. Although not mentioned here, I cannot come with another lesson besides that you really have to be careful from whom you are buying your watch from.
Kind regards,
Paul, wearing really genuine VC Portuguese
What you do may not be so important, but it is very important that you do it well. (my variation of a saying by Gandhi)
Last edited: 23 October, 2011 - 13:31
I guess the first thing we all need to do is check the spelling. Thanks Jack, I continue to learn a lot from your posts.
Last edited: 8 November, 2012 - 12:49
First I would like to thank Jack of superior watch and IWC for their intense pro bono work in getting to the bottom of this, it is a testimony to IWC as a brand committed to collectors and its history. The person who faked this watch probably used another watche's vintage case that fit the same size as the Cal 89 thogh I cannot be sure. So for example it could have been some other brand. They put the cal 89 movement into the other brand's watch case because IWC watches are more valuable.
The lesson learned here is significant. I have been collecting for over a decade and have a significant investment in my collection by any measure. I can tell you that I never would have expected the `level` of effort that went into faking this case. I bought this watch approximately 8 years ago. While there are many fake cases and recases around of one watch or another, the effort made here is a lesson learned. The lesson is that one should not understimate, even in an older watch, the effort one might have gone to in `order` to raise the value of a vintage watch. I realize recasing and franken-watches are NOTHING new. What I am saying here is that, for an IWC Cal 89 like this, it comes from left field. It isn't a recased pocket watch or a cool interesting aviator that was monster'ed up. It was a standard IWC Cal 89 in what is a beautiful case for that matter complete with service markings going back 30 years. Very very unexpected.
...lndblr.
Thanks a lot Jack for the great devotion to work. Wonderful IWC for the attention on watches...one more reason to be an IWC proud owner!
Kind regards
Regards, Nick
Last edited: 4 April, 2012 - 12:17
there's a lot of fraud is on websites... I've paid twice money for a watch I didn't recieve.
These fakes and fraud are really bad for the hobby!
Good luck, Martijn
Greetings, Martijn
Last edited: 6 July, 2012 - 10:18
Jack referenced a follow-on post with the back. Here is a post showing full pictures and highlighting how convincing this old vintage counterfeit is. Scroll down to my followon posts you will see in this thread as I had to repost some pictures so that they would appear on the site.
https://www.iwc.com/member/forum/display.asp?id=182750
Hello Jack,
Have you checked the other gold variants with this light case signature do not have a mis-spelt Scafucia. It may be intresting if they do...especially if the numberings marry to each other and could indicate an error with a contract casemaker way back when. I'd imagine it would be hard to source an hallmarked gold case completely devoid of makers signature to pull this trick with (and especially one so close to the style used by Schaffhausen). Makes you wonder if the case would have been deemed correct if a letter 'S' had have been used...Just thinking out loud...thanks for highlighting the anomaly.
Have the number of jewels spelled incorrectly on the movement?
Jeff
a very interesting point. I was wondering this myself but didn't discuss it with Jack. I think we should open that one up to some discussion.