166 Discussions and CommentsMember since July 9, 2009
I got this watch at a reputable auction house in Germany, delivered to Gerl & Schipper on the 7th sept. 1944, one of 400 pieces as can be read below. IWC Cal. 67 observation watch the German Navy (Kriegsmarine) Lepine
Movement Nr. 1068201 Case Nr. 1103532 Kriegsmarine Nr. M9307/2KL
Dial Luminous dial (zinc sulfide) Signed, KM / International Watch Co.Schaffhausen Small seconds at 6 o'clock
Movement Bridge lever movement Fine adjustment with counter-pressure spring Cal.67 15 Rubies pressed chatons Breguet spiral hand-wound
There were only 1,000 watches with ZnS dials produced and delivered, many of which are unfortunately are now on the bottom of the sea!
A lot has been written over these observer watches (Beobachtungs-Uhren) The best and most comprehensive I have read is from Jürgen King, here´s what he wrote; (Google Translation)
Military Watches of the Navy IWC watches of Cal. 67
Observation watches with dial imprint 'KM' and writing 'International Watch Co. Schaffhausen ". Compiled by J. King 4/24/01
There were two types of observation made watches, but the differences are very clear. The first version had a steel case with a visible dial diameter of 41 mm and the reference number 135, the metal dial bore the imprint 'KM', and the IWC logo. Of these two series were made, the first series were 365 housing units with the numbers l 074 901 - 075 264 l, delivered from July 1942 to December 1942 in Cologne on Gerl and Schipper. The second series were 300 housing units with the numbers 1076201-1076500, delivered from August 1942 to December 1942. The caseback was the 'Imperial Eagle' stamped, as is the quality label 'II Kl 'and the serial numbering' M 6038 'was engraved. The pedigree is still noted among housing 'met. blc. Saxonin, polie, unie 'caliber and '67-18''' H 5 'of this first version produced a total of 665 pieces.
The second version had a nickel housing with a visible dial diameter of 49 mm. The first delivery had an enamel dial with printed''KM 'and the IWC logo. Among the housing numbers 1080101 to 1081600 were 1500 pieces produced between the 13th and Jan. to 21st December 1943 at Gerl and Schipper delivered in Cologne.
Other supplies were fully equipped with luminous dials, likewise provided with 'KM' and IWC logo on the housing numbers, delivery to Gerl + Schipper in Cologne between the 7th September and 8 November 1944: 1103251 - 1103650 400 pieces 1107001 - 1107200 200 pieces 1107501 - 1107900 400 pieces Total: 1,000
Thus a total of 2,500 units with dial diameter 49 mm were delivered, divided into 1,500 pieces with enamel dial, and 1,000 with luminous dial. In both versions in the bottom case was the 'Imperial Eagle' imprinted, and the name 'II Kl' and consecutive numbering, for example, was engraved 'M 10 215'. At all observation watches was the caliber 67-18'''H 5 is used.
Among the housing numbers of some army watches 1080101 to 1081600 show the following changes: 1) The enamel dial has been replaced by a metal dial without lettering. 2) The case back has been replaced with the stock number of the Bundeswehr-engraved 121-8633 '12 '. Who carried out this work could not be searched.
The successor to the Bundeswehr had to supply the number '6645-12-151-5866 'identified and associated with wood storage box was in plain view of the supply spool number '6645-12-124-9144'.
German - Military Watches: Description
1) observation watches in steel case with metal dial and print 'KM' and IWC - lettering. The visible dial diameter is 41 mm. Back: 'Imperial Eagle' marked 'M 60 38' serial number engraved 'II Kl ' Chronometer second class are in the ground inside the enclosure number + the Probusstempel embossed, interior floor for dust protection housing with embossed number.
Text in the album include: Ref 135, H5 67 caliber 18''', housing met. bic. Saxonin polie - unie Ouv. 41 mm
Housing Numbers: Bis 107 4901 107 5264 = 365 14th St. Gerl + Schipper July 1942-9. December 1942 Bis 107 5265 107 5500 = 235 different St. Detailist 1943-44 Bis 107 6201 107 6500 = 300 pc Gerl + Schipper Aug. 1942-Dec. 1942 Total = 665 pieces
2) observation watches in the case of nickel (Met blc) with enamel dial and print 'KM' toilet and I -. Lettering. The visible dial diameter is 49 mm. Back: 'Imperial Eagle' marked 'M 9331' serial number engraved 'II K l'. In the ground inside the enclosure number + of Probus stamps are engraved. Interior floor dust-embossed with a case number
Text in the album: Lep. Reasons rehaut bassine anglaise pour glace sans incassable Charnier, Cal 67 -18 / 22'''H5, special tampon' Aigle anglais 'M II Cl' Fri 185, - net
Case Number: 108 0101 - 108 1600 = 1500 + St. G. Sch. 13th Jan. 1943-21. December 1943 110 3251 - 110 3650 = 400 G St., + Sch. 7, Sept. - 25 October 1944 110 7001 - 110 7200 = 200 + G St. Sch. 12th Oct. - 25.Oct. 1944 110 7501 - 110 7900 = 400 + St. G. Sch. l. Nov - 8th Nov. 1944 Total = 2500
3) observation watch in nickel case (Met bic) with full luminous dial and print 'KM' and IWC -. Lettering. The visible dial diameter is 49 mm rear 'Imperial Eagle' marked 'M 9331' engraved serial number 'II Kl ' . Inside the bottom of the case number + Probusstempel are embossed, interior floor for dust protection housing with embossed number.
Text in the album include: Kal 67-18/22''', special tampon' Aigle anglais 'M II Cl' Fri 185, - net
4) observation watch in nickel case (Met bic) with enamel dial and IWC -. Signature. The visible dial diameter is 49 mm Rear: stock number '12 - 121-8633 'remnants of the army' were KM 'observation watches with Nickel housing taken by the army and equipped with dials without KM. Also engraved on the (imperial eagle, M number, and the label class II) was cut out and the stock number (12-121 -8633) replaced. How many pieces have been rebuilt may not yet be tracked, estimated, rather a small number.
5) Beobachtungsuhr steel case with metal dial and IWC - lettering. Eigentumsnummeierung back of the Bundeswehr (stock number) '6645-12-151-5866 'IWC - Reference 5301 Caliber 9720 with Incabloc - shock absorber 17 stones 18 000 vibrations per hour. Special wooden box with stock number 6645 -12-124-9144 stamped on the back. Last delivery in 1987 total an additional 47 units + 7 pieces. Original here...
And here the watch, both the outer caseback and inner dustcover have the same numbers, as some apparantly were mixed up during sevice...enjoy.
166 Discussions and CommentsMember since July 9, 2009
The last photo was put in for all to see an ORIGINAL caseback, so many of these are faked, I thought it might be of importance, as I have also bought faked watches in the past, because of the lack of good references!...and by the way, I consider these as historical witnesess, which is a part of Gemanys history, like it or not. The Stamps on the back were imposed in Schaffhausen and not later on in Germany, as many might think!
2,149 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 23, 2001
Hi Jimmy, Especially interesting about the greenish dial is that after exposing it to white or uv-light the complete dial starts to glow. This is due to a thin layer of ZnS (Zinc Sulphid). It is a non-radio-active substance that can glow for a limited time after having been turned on by enlightening it. As the use of heavily radio-active Radium-226 on watch dials, indices and hands only stopped during the 1960-ties and as there was no Tritium nor SuperLuminova available during that era, many collectors have thought the this KM watch was extremely radio-active and by that dangerous. I was able to measure its radioactivity with extremely sensitve Geiger counters and found ....no radiation at all. This type of Observation Watch was used on the German U-Boote (submarines) and these submarines had an uv-lamp on board to shine the dial when necessary. The watch was winded fully every morning by the officer of duty. Nobody, including the captain was allowed to touch the watch. It was considered as an important instrument for navigation as well as for indicating the correct time on board (master watch). It is a shame that one has tried on your piece to remove "K M" on the dial. Showing the back side with German Eagle and swastica as you did, has only to do with history and nothing more. Kind regards, Adrian. (alwaysiwc)
I really appreciate your watch and compliment you on its acquisition. The Nationalist Socialist symbols don't bother me one bit --it reflects an important chapter in history. However, I also understand how that can concern some others and I don't dismiss their feelings, certainly out of respect.
Here's a photo of mine, which has a wooden housing added afterwards (by me --I acquired that from a Soviet observation watch):
Mine is from the fourth Cal. 67 lot on 8 November 1944. But as you will note the dial has no KM and also the back is clean without outside engravings. I'm sure about the authenticity, and discussed the watch with Konrad Knirim and the late Fritz Wagner, great experts here. The dial does have ZnS and glows nicely. If I recall, Herr Knirim thought the de-Nazification occurred since these watches were subsequently used by the Bund. But given the lack of any trace of removal on the the back (but with the Probus Stamp on the inside caseback) and the ZnS dial, I'm now wondering if this watch might be one of the few in the fourth category you've mentioned from Herr King.
166 Discussions and CommentsMember since July 9, 2009
Thank you all, and especially you Adrian, for an exhaustive explaination towards the glowing of the ZnS dials. I too was one of the misinformed, believing it was a mixture of ZnS and Radium-226 that caused the glow, untill I read your " EXPERIMENTS WITH RADIOLUMINESCENT DIALS FROM MILITARY IWC WATCHES." which can be read here [Experiments.../url]
IWC Cal. 67 observation watch the German Navy (Kriegsmarine)
Lepine
Movement Nr. 1068201
Case Nr. 1103532
Kriegsmarine Nr. M9307/2KL
Dial
Luminous dial (zinc sulfide)
Signed, KM / International Watch Co.Schaffhausen
Small seconds at 6 o'clock
Movement
Bridge lever movement
Fine adjustment with counter-pressure spring
Cal.67
15 Rubies
pressed chatons
Breguet spiral
hand-wound
There were only 1,000 watches with ZnS dials produced and delivered, many of which are unfortunately are now on the bottom of the sea!
A lot has been written over these observer watches (Beobachtungs-Uhren) The best and most comprehensive I have read is from Jürgen King, here´s what he wrote; (Google Translation)
Military Watches of the Navy
IWC watches of Cal. 67
Observation watches with dial imprint 'KM' and writing 'International Watch Co. Schaffhausen ".
Compiled by J. King 4/24/01
There were two types of observation made watches, but the differences are very clear. The first version had a steel case with a visible dial diameter of 41 mm and the reference number 135, the metal dial bore the imprint 'KM', and the IWC logo. Of these two series were made, the first series were 365 housing units with the numbers l 074 901 - 075 264 l, delivered from July 1942 to December 1942 in Cologne on Gerl and Schipper. The second series were 300 housing units with the numbers 1076201-1076500, delivered from August 1942 to December 1942. The caseback was the 'Imperial Eagle' stamped, as is the quality label 'II Kl 'and the serial numbering' M 6038 'was engraved. The pedigree is still noted among housing 'met. blc. Saxonin, polie, unie 'caliber and '67-18''' H 5 'of this first version produced a total of 665 pieces.
The second version had a nickel housing with a visible dial diameter of 49 mm. The first delivery had an enamel dial with printed''KM 'and the IWC logo. Among the housing numbers 1080101 to 1081600 were 1500 pieces produced between the 13th and Jan. to 21st December 1943 at Gerl and Schipper delivered in Cologne.
Other supplies were fully equipped with luminous dials, likewise provided with 'KM' and IWC logo on the housing numbers, delivery to Gerl + Schipper in Cologne between the 7th September and 8 November 1944:
1103251 - 1103650 400 pieces
1107001 - 1107200 200 pieces
1107501 - 1107900 400 pieces
Total: 1,000
Thus a total of 2,500 units with dial diameter 49 mm were delivered, divided into 1,500 pieces with enamel dial, and 1,000 with luminous dial. In both versions in the bottom case was the 'Imperial Eagle' imprinted, and the name 'II Kl' and consecutive numbering, for example, was engraved 'M 10 215'. At all observation watches was the caliber 67-18'''H 5 is used.
Among the housing numbers of some army watches 1080101 to 1081600 show the following changes:
1) The enamel dial has been replaced by a metal dial without lettering.
2) The case back has been replaced with the stock number of the Bundeswehr-engraved 121-8633 '12 '. Who carried out this work could not be searched.
The successor to the Bundeswehr had to supply the number '6645-12-151-5866 'identified and associated with wood storage box was in plain view of the supply spool number '6645-12-124-9144'.
German - Military Watches: Description
1) observation watches in steel case with metal dial and print 'KM' and IWC - lettering. The visible dial diameter is 41 mm. Back: 'Imperial Eagle' marked 'M 60 38' serial number engraved 'II Kl ' Chronometer second class are in the ground inside the enclosure number + the Probusstempel embossed, interior floor for dust protection housing with embossed number.
Text in the album include: Ref 135, H5 67 caliber 18''', housing met. bic. Saxonin polie - unie Ouv. 41 mm
Housing Numbers:
Bis 107 4901 107 5264 = 365 14th St. Gerl + Schipper July 1942-9. December 1942
Bis 107 5265 107 5500 = 235 different St. Detailist 1943-44
Bis 107 6201 107 6500 = 300 pc Gerl + Schipper Aug. 1942-Dec. 1942
Total = 665 pieces
2) observation watches in the case of nickel (Met blc) with enamel dial and print 'KM' toilet and I -. Lettering. The visible dial diameter is 49 mm. Back: 'Imperial Eagle' marked 'M 9331' serial number engraved 'II K l'. In the ground inside the enclosure number + of Probus stamps are engraved. Interior floor dust-embossed with a case number
Text in the album: Lep. Reasons rehaut bassine anglaise pour glace sans incassable Charnier, Cal 67 -18 / 22'''H5, special tampon' Aigle anglais 'M II Cl' Fri 185, - net
Case Number:
108 0101 - 108 1600 = 1500 + St. G. Sch. 13th Jan. 1943-21. December 1943
110 3251 - 110 3650 = 400 G St., + Sch. 7, Sept. - 25 October 1944
110 7001 - 110 7200 = 200 + G St. Sch. 12th Oct. - 25.Oct. 1944
110 7501 - 110 7900 = 400 + St. G. Sch. l. Nov - 8th Nov. 1944
Total = 2500
3) observation watch in nickel case (Met bic) with full luminous dial and print 'KM' and IWC -. Lettering. The visible dial diameter is 49 mm rear 'Imperial Eagle' marked 'M 9331' engraved serial number 'II Kl ' . Inside the bottom of the case number + Probusstempel are embossed, interior floor for dust protection housing with embossed number.
Text in the album include: Kal 67-18/22''', special tampon' Aigle anglais 'M II Cl' Fri 185, - net
4) observation watch in nickel case (Met bic) with enamel dial and IWC -. Signature. The visible dial diameter is 49 mm Rear: stock number '12 - 121-8633 'remnants of the army' were KM 'observation watches with Nickel housing taken by the army and equipped with dials without KM. Also engraved on the (imperial eagle, M number, and the label class II) was cut out and the stock number (12-121 -8633) replaced. How many pieces have been rebuilt may not yet be tracked, estimated, rather a small number.
5) Beobachtungsuhr steel case with metal dial and IWC - lettering. Eigentumsnummeierung back of the Bundeswehr (stock number) '6645-12-151-5866 'IWC - Reference 5301 Caliber 9720 with Incabloc - shock absorber 17 stones 18 000 vibrations per hour. Special wooden box with stock number 6645 -12-124-9144 stamped on the back. Last delivery in 1987 total an additional 47 units + 7 pieces.
Original here...
And here the watch, both the outer caseback and inner dustcover have the same numbers, as some apparantly were mixed up during sevice...enjoy.
Best Regards
Jimmy
Last edited: 15 October, 2011 - 17:40
Many Thanks for sharing.
--
Isobars.
Best regards
Argiris
Last edited: 29 October, 2011 - 21:11
Regards
Last edited: 15 October, 2011 - 17:54
clepsydra
ad fontes...
Last edited: 30 October, 2011 - 22:05
Andrew
andrew.thomas1@mac.com
Last edited: 1 January, 2012 - 02:03
NElson
Especially interesting about the greenish dial is that after exposing it to white or uv-light the complete dial starts to glow. This is due to a thin layer of ZnS (Zinc Sulphid). It is a non-radio-active substance that can glow for a limited time after having been turned on by enlightening it. As the use of heavily radio-active Radium-226 on watch dials, indices and hands only stopped during the 1960-ties and as there was no Tritium nor SuperLuminova available during that era, many collectors have thought the this KM watch was extremely radio-active and by that dangerous. I was able to measure its radioactivity with extremely sensitve Geiger counters and found ....no radiation at all. This type of Observation Watch was used on the German U-Boote (submarines) and these submarines had an uv-lamp on board to shine the dial when necessary. The watch was winded fully every morning by the officer of duty. Nobody, including the captain was allowed to touch the watch. It was considered as an important instrument for navigation as well as for indicating the correct time on board (master watch). It is a shame that one has tried on your piece to remove "K M" on the dial. Showing the back side with German Eagle and swastica as you did, has only to do with history and nothing more.
Kind regards,
Adrian.
(alwaysiwc)
Here's a photo of mine, which has a wooden housing added afterwards (by me --I acquired that from a Soviet observation watch):
Mine is from the fourth Cal. 67 lot on 8 November 1944. But as you will note the dial has no KM and also the back is clean without outside engravings. I'm sure about the authenticity, and discussed the watch with Konrad Knirim and the late Fritz Wagner, great experts here. The dial does have ZnS and glows nicely. If I recall, Herr Knirim thought the de-Nazification occurred since these watches were subsequently used by the Bund. But given the lack of any trace of removal on the the back (but with the Probus Stamp on the inside caseback) and the ZnS dial, I'm now wondering if this watch might be one of the few in the fourth category you've mentioned from Herr King.
Regards, Michael
mfriedberg@iwcforum.com
Last edited: 5 April, 2012 - 19:53
Not only, but also!...
I have a document which may be of interest to those collecting military watches and clocks, written in german of course, but exact orders, which and how many watches and clocks were to be supplied to German vessels in WW2.
I´d rather not post it here, but if anyone wishes to see it I have it
...here
Best Regards
Jimmy
Last edited: 15 October, 2011 - 23:21