56 Discussions and CommentsMember since April 5, 2010
Dear David,
Many thanks for your posts! I share the caution for the batch 401-500. I am also think it is necessary to look for still existing watches and movements to reconstruct all the batches of second numbering to the number 6500. It would be helpful if in the forum there was an archive of all existing watches and movements of which there is no trace in the archives iwc (also of the first numbering).
217 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 27, 2001
Reinhard Meis shows in his book a picture of the Pallweber I movement. If he is right, the shown movement Nr. 554 is not a Pallweber I movement. The difference between Pallweber type II and III can best seen with an under dial view of the 3 indicator discs (Toelke u. King p.116). But neverseless I think Rolf Birkenkemper is right! H.G.
56 Discussions and CommentsMember since April 5, 2010
Rolf Birkenkaemper Wrote:Hi
to my knowledge nobody has ever seen a Pallweber I. When the Toelke/King book was written the authors tried feverishly to find a Pallweber I. In vain.
regards Rolf
Dear Rolf, another Pallweber I is well known because it is preserved in the museum IWC (n. 350). Also a photo of the movement n. 331 is present in the book of Reinhard Meis (p. 49, photo n. 26). Regards Giovanni
56 Discussions and CommentsMember since April 5, 2010
Hans-Georg Aberle Wrote:Reinhard Meis shows in his book a picture of the Pallweber I movement. If he is right, the shown movement Nr. 554 is not a Pallweber I movement. The difference between Pallweber type II and III can best seen with an under dial view of the 3 indicator discs (Toelke u. King p.116). But neverseless I think Rolf Birkenkemper is right! H.G.
Dear Hans-Georg, Obviously the problem is not the differences between Pallweber II and Pallweber III. Why do you think that the movement no. 554 is different from the one photographed in the book of Reinhard Meis? If you look at p. 48 photo n. 24 you will see that the movement of n. 554 corresponds to that of the Pallweber I. I may add that in n. 554 under the dial the supports of the wheels of the numbers are straight as are those of the photo on p. 49 n. 25, that is typical of Pallweber I.
For other comparisons see http://www.faszination-uhrwerk.de/w/w19/a19/ankerwerke-19.html. Even in this case the movement of n. 554 corresponds to that of the Pallweber I and not to Pallweber II. Regards Giovanni
66 Discussions and CommentsMember since Dec. 15, 2001Orx,
France
Dear Giovanni
it is relatively easy to spot the difference between a Pallweber I , a Pallweber II and a Pallweber III . By looking at the numbering sequence on the rotating disks you will see : On the Pallweber II the numbering on the hour disk and on the minute disk run clockwise ( i.e. 1, 2, 3 etc.). On the 10minute disk it is anti-clockwise (i.e. 6, 5, 4 etc. ) On the Pallweber I it is the other way round ( 6, 5, 4, etc. on the hour and on the minute disk ; 1, 2, 3 etc. on the 10minute disk) Pallweber III is like Pallweber II .
Is your very nice watch a Pallweber II or really a sensational Pallweber I ?
217 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 27, 2001
Hi Giovanni, I was convinced that your wonderful Pallweber watch is not a type I, because in the book of Meis (p.48) he wrote that the type I has a thin plate-spring holding the "Kleinbodenrad" (the wheel under the spring case-bridge, with the toothe-gaps)and that should be typical. Regards! Hans
56 Discussions and CommentsMember since April 5, 2010
Dear Rolf and dear Hans-Georg, as David Seyffer said we know that IWC in 1884 was trying to improve the Pallweber mechanism. There was a continuous improvement process going on in 1884/85. Now the question is what we mean by Pallweber I and Pallweber II.
The movement illustrated by Reinhard Meis is the n. 331 and has the characteristics specified by you. However it is likely that the movement has been the subject of continuous development and that there are movements that have mixed characteristics typical of this developmental stage.
A picture can clarify the problem:
The movement lower down in the picture is certainly a Pallweber II, but the upper one is always a Pallweber II? The movement n. 554 is entirely similar to the top one in which, however, the numbering on the hour disk and on the minute disk run clockwise and the 10minute disk is anti-clockwise.
Also n. 554 has not the thin plate-spring holding the "Kleinbodenrad", but has yet the corresponding hole which is instead absent in Pallweber II. See http://www.faszination-uhrwerk.de/w/w19/a19/ankerwerke-19.html. for another Pallweber I without the thin plate-spring holding the "Kleinbodenrad".
The movement n. 554 is certainly an evolution with respect to n. 331, but is very different from Pallweber II. It would be interesting to see the photos of the n. 350 and n. 979 (the first movement Pallweber II certainly known). The question is to understand where it ends Pallweber I and where it begins Pallweber II. David Seyffer can help us answer the question?
7 Discussions and CommentsMember since Nov. 1, 2007
Dear Giovanni, Rolf and Hans-Georg,
Thank you for keeping up the discussion.
The both movements you can see on the pictures that posted Giovanni are from the IWC collection.Below you see the movement Pallweber II, H7 19''', Nr. 979; above Pallweber I, H7 19''', Nr. 350.
To examine if Nr. 554 is a Pallweber I or II it would be very good to have a under dial view.
Best wishes from Schaffhausen and have a nice evening,
Many thanks for your posts!
I share the caution for the batch 401-500. I am also think it is necessary to look for still existing watches and movements to reconstruct all the batches of second numbering to the number 6500.
It would be helpful if in the forum there was an archive of all existing watches and movements of which there is no trace in the archives iwc (also of the first numbering).
Grazie degli auguri che ricambio, buona Pasqua!
Giovanni Luchetti
Last edited: 8 April, 2012 - 11:15
to my knowledge nobody has ever seen a Pallweber I.
When the Toelke/King book was written the authors tried feverishly to find a Pallweber I. In vain.
regards
Rolf
H.G.
Last edited: 26 November, 2012 - 20:28
Dear Rolf, another Pallweber I is well known because it is preserved in the museum IWC (n. 350). Also a photo of the movement n. 331 is present in the book of Reinhard Meis (p. 49, photo n. 26).
Regards
Giovanni
Last edited: 10 April, 2012 - 21:15
Thanks Giovanni
Regards
Mike
Last edited: 11 December, 2012 - 21:52
Dear Hans-Georg,
Obviously the problem is not the differences between Pallweber II and Pallweber III.
Why do you think that the movement no. 554 is different from the one photographed in the book of Reinhard Meis?
If you look at p. 48 photo n. 24 you will see that the movement of n. 554 corresponds to that of the Pallweber I.
I may add that in n. 554 under the dial the supports of the wheels of the numbers are straight as are those of the photo on p. 49 n. 25, that is typical of Pallweber I.
For other comparisons see http://www.faszination-uhrwerk.de/w/w19/a19/ankerwerke-19.html.
Even in this case the movement of n. 554 corresponds to that of the Pallweber I and not to Pallweber II.
Regards
Giovanni
Last edited: 11 April, 2012 - 00:22
it is relatively easy to spot the difference between a Pallweber I , a Pallweber II and a Pallweber III .
By looking at the numbering sequence on the rotating disks you will see :
On the Pallweber II the numbering on the hour disk and on the minute disk run clockwise ( i.e. 1, 2, 3 etc.). On the 10minute disk it is anti-clockwise
(i.e. 6, 5, 4 etc. )
On the Pallweber I it is the other way round ( 6, 5, 4, etc. on the hour and on the minute disk ; 1, 2, 3 etc. on the 10minute disk)
Pallweber III is like Pallweber II .
Is your very nice watch a Pallweber II or really a sensational Pallweber I ?
Regards
Rolf
I was convinced that your wonderful Pallweber watch is not a type I, because in the book of Meis (p.48) he wrote that the type I has a thin plate-spring holding the "Kleinbodenrad" (the wheel under the spring case-bridge, with the toothe-gaps)and that should be typical.
Regards!
Hans
Last edited: 26 November, 2012 - 20:28
as David Seyffer said we know that IWC in 1884 was trying to improve the Pallweber mechanism. There was a continuous improvement process going on in 1884/85. Now the question is what we mean by Pallweber I and Pallweber II.
The movement illustrated by Reinhard Meis is the n. 331 and has the characteristics specified by you. However it is likely that the movement has been the subject of continuous development and that there are movements that have mixed characteristics typical of this developmental stage.
A picture can clarify the problem:
The movement lower down in the picture is certainly a Pallweber II, but the upper one is always a Pallweber II? The movement n. 554 is entirely similar to the top one in which, however, the numbering on the hour disk and on the minute disk run clockwise and the 10minute disk is anti-clockwise.
Also n. 554 has not the thin plate-spring holding the "Kleinbodenrad", but has yet the corresponding hole which is instead absent in Pallweber II.
See http://www.faszination-uhrwerk.de/w/w19/a19/ankerwerke-19.html. for another Pallweber I without the thin plate-spring holding the "Kleinbodenrad".
The movement n. 554 is certainly an evolution with respect to n. 331, but is very different from Pallweber II. It would be interesting to see the photos of the n. 350 and n. 979 (the first movement Pallweber II certainly known).
The question is to understand where it ends Pallweber I and where it begins Pallweber II.
David Seyffer can help us answer the question?
Last edited: 12 April, 2012 - 01:31
Thank you for keeping up the discussion.
The both movements you can see on the pictures that posted Giovanni are from the IWC collection.Below you see the movement Pallweber II, H7 19''', Nr. 979; above Pallweber I, H7 19''', Nr. 350.
To examine if Nr. 554 is a Pallweber I or II it would be very good to have a under dial view.
Best wishes from Schaffhausen and have a nice evening,
David Seyffer
Museum Curator