6 Discussions and CommentsMember since Dec. 27, 2006
Hello,
I own 6 IWCs. 5 of them I bought brand new, the weight of each is exactly as specified in IWC workbooks or other sources I found. My last buy, a used BP 5002 differs in the weight by 10g, instead of 149g it only weights 139g. Alarmed by that I went to an official IWC shop to let a watchmaker open the back.
The movement is working very well and is 100% original. But the watchmaker doubts the correctness of the serial number on the inner side of the back. Can anybody confirm the correctness/incorrectness of the serial in the picture below? It looks very scratched but could it be original?
Maybe somebody also got a picture of this engravings of a 100% genuine 5002 so I can compare? Do you have any other explainations for the incorrect weight?
5,419 Discussions and CommentsMember since Dec. 22, 2006
Welcome to the forum. Feel welcomed tk share details of your IWC collection.
I havent seen the inside of the case back of a 5002 - so I hope others can help - but the quality of the engraving doesnt look to be of the highest standard.
2,996 Discussions and CommentsMember since April 2, 2011Hong Kong,
Hong Kong
Hi Andi, welcome to the forum.
a) the workbook's stated weight is with the standard strap and deployant - so if the strap has changed (and very likely it would have, or would have been significantly worned out), the weight would be different. I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on the loss of weight due to the natural ageing of oils and lubricants over the years.
b) pics of the movement would help, as well as pics of the signature on the movement.
c) Like Andrew I haven't seen the inside of the caseback of a ref 5002 unfortunately.
Regards, Shing | email iwcforme1976 (at) gmail (dot) com time does not change us. it just unfolds us. max frisch. all that really belongs to us is time; even he who has nothing else has that. baltasar gracian.
While the number would be more or less consistent with 5002 production, the engraving seems off as Andrew noted. Have another photos of the watch -case back (outside), crown, dial, movement?
6 Discussions and CommentsMember since Dec. 27, 2006
Dear all,
thanks for the welcome to the forum and I hope I'm not annoying you with this discussion. But as technican the missing weight is driving me nuts and as one of my hobbies are oldtimer motorcycles I'm aware of faked numbers. So, I will give you here some of my thoughts and my opinions to your mentioned thoughts. Later I will upload some more pictures:
The strap: Shing, indeed you are right, my strap is the 135 instead of the 145. Strap is in excellent condition so it only explains 1g, maximum 2g of the missing weight. Still 8g are remaining...
The movement: I don't think there are any fakes out there of this movement. My watchmaker confirmed the originality of it, PR is perfect, and the precision even beats my Mark XVI which is incredible for a mechanical watch. Also I measured the correct 5 beats/sec.
The serial: At the watchmaker we opened a brand new 5009 too. The engravings were all done by machine and just be perfect. In contrast my engravings look like done manually by hand. It seems somebody marked the places for the numbers before actually engraving it (horizontal line below the numbers but also vertical lines the center the "5002"). That's why I would like to see another backcase so badly and still hope somebody will share some internal pictures!
Polishing the case: The seller of the watch meant, maybe it was polished once. But assesing the net weight of the case only with around 50g to 60g this would mean a material loss by polishing of more than 15% which is simply impossible. Also the case and proportions looks fine and dimensions are right.
You see, I just don't get any reasonable explainations. My first though was a missing soft iron case, but thats here too. Maybe you got some more ideas or can see something on the pictures coming later.
163 Discussions and CommentsMember since April 22, 2011
United Kingdom
Hi Andi, There are not many areas of your watch that can be modified enough to account for your 8g loss while going unnoticed to the user. Most likely options are a different crystal or/and thinning of the caseback. The original sapphire crystal would be considerably denser/heavier than an after-market glass replacement. Look closely to check if you can see the blueish tint of the anti-reflective coating that would be on the original. I have removed the caseback of hundreds of 5002's and never seen a serial/model number engraving like yours. As you have observed, there are guide lines under the numbers. These are never used by the factory as they are unnecessary in the production process. The 5002 is also off center(compare it to SWISS). During manufacture the IWC logo, name, swiss and S/steel info is stamped into the caseback quite deeply whereas the serial/model number engraving is very shallow. Should someone feel it necessary to remove/modify the serial number, they could spin the caseback in a lathe and remove enough metal to eliminate the number without damaging the stamped branding,leaving them a blank canvas on which to engrave(with guide lines)whatever they wish. The serial number engraving on the outside of the caseback could be treated in the same fashion as the caseback is very thick to allow for the 8 caseback-removing tool holes. All this is,of course,just a theory based on a single photo and without examining the watch. I do hope there is a much more lawful reasoning behind your 8g. If you email me the last 2 digits of the serial number, I can tell you if it is associated with a 5002 but for further information,you would have to contact the factory. leo(DOT)sweeneypod(AT)gmail(DOT)com Leo
Choose a job you love and you will never have to work a day in your life.....Confucius
3,726 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 28, 2001
Yes, now I remember why I am so cowardly cautious when a lot of money is at stake, certainly with watches. I truly hate these kinds of adventures. Of course I miss out on some of the fun too. I wondered about a Jubilee, about older Big Pilots, that I didn't buy when they were for sale at an AD. Tough, I think, period. I will never own these watches as I will never buy them second hand. Looking at the watches I have, I don't need to, what I have is nice enough.
In the meantime I wonder what will happen here. If the case back is either fake or thinned (why on earth), will you return the watch to the previous owner? Good luck, I hope that in the end it is nothing serious.
Kind regards, Paul
What you do may not be so important, but it is very important that you do it well. (my variation of a saying by Gandhi)
6 Discussions and CommentsMember since Dec. 27, 2006
ok, images are in review for some reason, here a link to see more: Pictures...
Leo, thanks a lot for your thought. I can imagine why to remove a number. I was also thinking about the sapphire crystal but I cannot see a different to my other "Fliegeruhren" from IWC except the BP glass is more even than the Mark or Chronograph ones.
@Sunflower: I was thinking similar like you, but there is no way to get the 5002 new. So I bought it in a known shop for used luxery watches. I guess, this gives me some security in case something is really wrong with this watch...
163 Discussions and CommentsMember since April 22, 2011
United Kingdom
Hi Andi, Good photos. Unfortunatly they have confirmed my theory. I am 100% certain that the outside of your caseback has been substantially reduced in weight/thickness. Your crystal doesn't appear to have a coating either. I'm not sure which Fliegeruhren you're using for comparison but most 3706 and 3253 and all pilot's before them did not have coatings. All 5002 should have. Leo
Choose a job you love and you will never have to work a day in your life.....Confucius
I own 6 IWCs. 5 of them I bought brand new, the weight of each is exactly as specified in IWC workbooks or other sources I found. My last buy, a used BP 5002 differs in the weight by 10g, instead of 149g it only weights 139g. Alarmed by that I went to an official IWC shop to let a watchmaker open the back.
The movement is working very well and is 100% original. But the watchmaker doubts the correctness of the serial number on the inner side of the back. Can anybody confirm the correctness/incorrectness of the serial in the picture below? It looks very scratched but could it be original?
Maybe somebody also got a picture of this engravings of a 100% genuine 5002 so I can compare? Do you have any other explainations for the incorrect weight?
Thanks a lot in advance,
Andi
I havent seen the inside of the case back of a 5002 - so I hope others can help - but the quality of the engraving doesnt look to be of the highest standard.
Andrew
andrew.thomas1@mac.com
a) the workbook's stated weight is with the standard strap and deployant - so if the strap has changed (and very likely it would have, or would have been significantly worned out), the weight would be different. I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on the loss of weight due to the natural ageing of oils and lubricants over the years.
b) pics of the movement would help, as well as pics of the signature on the movement.
c) Like Andrew I haven't seen the inside of the caseback of a ref 5002 unfortunately.
Regards, Shing | email iwcforme1976 (at) gmail (dot) com
time does not change us. it just unfolds us. max frisch.
all that really belongs to us is time; even he who has nothing else has that. baltasar gracian.
Last edited: 8 December, 2012 - 16:07
Regards, Michael
mfriedberg@iwcforum.com
thanks for the welcome to the forum and I hope I'm not annoying you with this discussion. But as technican the missing weight is driving me nuts and as one of my hobbies are oldtimer motorcycles I'm aware of faked numbers. So, I will give you here some of my thoughts and my opinions to your mentioned thoughts. Later I will upload some more pictures:
The strap: Shing, indeed you are right, my strap is the 135 instead of the 145. Strap is in excellent condition so it only explains 1g, maximum 2g of the missing weight. Still 8g are remaining...
The movement: I don't think there are any fakes out there of this movement. My watchmaker confirmed the originality of it, PR is perfect, and the precision even beats my Mark XVI which is incredible for a mechanical watch. Also I measured the correct 5 beats/sec.
The serial: At the watchmaker we opened a brand new 5009 too. The engravings were all done by machine and just be perfect. In contrast my engravings look like done manually by hand. It seems somebody marked the places for the numbers before actually engraving it (horizontal line below the numbers but also vertical lines the center the "5002"). That's why I would like to see another backcase so badly and still hope somebody will share some internal pictures!
Polishing the case: The seller of the watch meant, maybe it was polished once. But assesing the net weight of the case only with around 50g to 60g this would mean a material loss by polishing of more than 15% which is simply impossible. Also the case and proportions looks fine and dimensions are right.
You see, I just don't get any reasonable explainations. My first though was a missing soft iron case, but thats here too. Maybe you got some more ideas or can see something on the pictures coming later.
My best regards, Andi
There are not many areas of your watch that can be modified enough to account for your 8g loss while going unnoticed to the user. Most likely options are a different crystal or/and thinning of the caseback.
The original sapphire crystal would be considerably denser/heavier than an after-market glass replacement. Look closely to check if you can see the blueish tint of the anti-reflective coating that would be on the original.
I have removed the caseback of hundreds of 5002's and never seen a serial/model number engraving like yours. As you have observed, there are guide lines under the numbers. These are never used by the factory as they are unnecessary in the production process. The 5002 is also off center(compare it to SWISS).
During manufacture the IWC logo, name, swiss and S/steel info is stamped into the caseback quite deeply whereas the serial/model number engraving is very shallow. Should someone feel it necessary to remove/modify the serial number, they could spin the caseback in a lathe and remove enough metal to eliminate the number without damaging the stamped branding,leaving them a blank canvas on which to engrave(with guide lines)whatever they wish.
The serial number engraving on the outside of the caseback could be treated in the same fashion as the caseback is very thick to allow for the 8 caseback-removing tool holes.
All this is,of course,just a theory based on a single photo and without examining the watch. I do hope there is a much more lawful reasoning behind your 8g. If you email me the last 2 digits of the serial number, I can tell you if it is associated with a 5002 but for further information,you would have to contact the factory. leo(DOT)sweeneypod(AT)gmail(DOT)com
Leo
Last edited: 22 September, 2012 - 08:43
In the meantime I wonder what will happen here. If the case back is either fake or thinned (why on earth), will you return the watch to the previous owner? Good luck, I hope that in the end it is nothing serious.
Kind regards,
Paul
What you do may not be so important, but it is very important that you do it well. (my variation of a saying by Gandhi)
Pictures...
Leo, thanks a lot for your thought. I can imagine why to remove a number. I was also thinking about the sapphire crystal but I cannot see a different to my other "Fliegeruhren" from IWC except the BP glass is more even than the Mark or Chronograph ones.
@Sunflower: I was thinking similar like you, but there is no way to get the 5002 new. So I bought it in a known shop for used luxery watches. I guess, this gives me some security in case something is really wrong with this watch...
Last edited: 1 September, 2012 - 14:15
Good photos.
Unfortunatly they have confirmed my theory. I am 100% certain that the outside of your caseback has been substantially reduced in weight/thickness.
Your crystal doesn't appear to have a coating either. I'm not sure which Fliegeruhren you're using for comparison but most 3706 and 3253 and all pilot's before them did not have coatings. All 5002 should have.
Leo
Last edited: 22 September, 2012 - 08:43
Big Pilot 5004
Aquatimer 2000 (3568-02)