alwaysiwc Wrote:Hi David, Good to see you here again. From previous emails, I have learned a lot about the Stauffer marks from you and you were the first to point out that the Stauffer Ram was different from the Schaffhausen Bock. What puzzles me is who stamped these "Rams" and "peerless" markings. One could assume that this was done by Stauffer, but it is my guess that it was done by IWC. After all, as far as I know,IWC sent complete movements to London, were they were cased by Stauffer, using British cases, when made from silver, marked with British hallmarks, as is shown by Mark in his Borgel watch. The complete movements had no IWC marks or stamps, except the Schaffhausen Bock, of which we now know that it is not a Schauffhausen Bock but a Stauffer Ram. If IWC did not apply these markings, it would have meant that the complete movements had to be dismantled again once arrived in London, to allow Stauffer marking. That would cost time and money. Or did IWC send dismantled movements.....? Kind regards, Adrian.
Dear Adrian, Seasons greetings from Cheshire, nice to hear from you.
I too believe that IWC only supplied either complete watches or bare movements to Stauffer, not parts to be assembled into watches. I am sure that the stamping of the Stauffer ram, and the Stauffer "S&Co. under a crown in an oval" mark were done by IWC, apart from anything else because surely these marks would be applied at an early stage of the production process, before the plates were gilded, and because of the danger of distortion or damage to delicate components later on. I have written to IWC asking them to confirm that they only supplied either complete watches or complete movements to Stauffer, not parts to be assembled into movements. Certainly this is the only way they have ever discussed them with me when I have asked for an extract from the archives, they either confirm that the watch was supplied complete or say "this movement was ... etc".
You say that "The complete movements had no IWC marks or stamps, except the Schaffhausen Bock ..." but I think that most, if not all, had the "IWC Probus Scafusia" mark on the bottom plate, only visible when the dial is removed.
IWC movements supplied to Stauffer were cased in Switzerland before import to Britain, not cased in Britain using British cases. Mark's watch has a Borgel case which was made by the company of François Borgel in Geneva (for those interested there is a history of the Borgel company on my web site at www.vintagewatchstraps.com/Borgel). That the case was not made in Britain is clear from the mark used to identify the Assay office. In Mark's watch this is the mark that looks like an Omega symbol on a crossed background in an oval cameo. If you look at the table Mark has reproduced from my web site you can see that I have identified this as the mark for "London imports", i.e. imported items assayed at the London Assay Office. The London Assay Office used this particular mark for imported items from 1904. If the item had been made in Britain the mark would have been that of a leopards head, used by the London Assay Office since the 14th century. For those interested there is more discussion on hallmarking on my web site at www.vintagewatchstraps.com/casemarks.html. All Stauffer watches that I have seen with IWC movements have been stamped with the assay office import mark, showing that they were cased in Switzerland, almost certainly at Stauffer's own factory in la Chaux-de-Fonds.
My conclusions from all these ramblings are that the stamping of the Stauffer marks of the Stauffer ram and the "S&Co. under a crown in an oval" mark were most probably done by IWC, and that bare movements supplied to Stauffer were cased in Switzerland, using Swiss made cases either Borgel or other, most probably at Stauffer's own factory in la Chaux-de-Fonds.
2,149 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 23, 2001
Hi David, Once again I have to admire your research and the results of it. The story of the silver cases with "London import" is new to me and it is very interesting. I had several discussions with Alan Myers, the Irish collector and expert of Jones and Seeland watches made by IWC. I showed to him a Seeland with silver case of which the silver hallmarks were typically British. I asked Alan, whether the Seelands were cased in Great Britain. He answered me that this was probably not true but that in his opinion silver cases with British hallmarks were shipped to Schaffhausen and that the Seeland watches,produced for the British market were completely assembled in Schaffhausen. I believe he is right, because the Extract of the Archives for a "British" IWC Seeland will provide the movement number and the casenumber as well. Alan also stated that during those days it was strictly forbidden to export these silver British hallmarked cases to Switzerland and that severe penalties were risked, by doing so. But I guess, the courageous spirit of Wilhelm Tell and the trading spirit of the Swiss in general, made that the Schaffhauser were not very impressed... Kind regards, Adrian.
alwaysiwc Wrote:Hi David, Once again I have to admire your research and the results of it. The story of the silver cases with "London import" is new to me and it is very interesting. I had several discussions with Alan Myers, the Irish collector and expert of Jones and Seeland watches made by IWC. I showed to him a Seeland with silver case of which the silver hallmarks were typically British. I asked Alan, whether the Seelands were cased in Great Britain. He answered me that this was probably not true but that in his opinion silver cases with British hallmarks were shipped to Schaffhausen and that the Seeland watches,produced for the British market were completely assembled in Schaffhausen. I believe he is right, because the Extract of the Archives for a "British" IWC Seeland will provide the movement number and the casenumber as well. Alan also stated that during those days it was strictly forbidden to export these silver British hallmarked cases to Switzerland and that severe penalties were risked, by doing so. But I guess, the courageous spirit of Wilhelm Tell and the trading spirit of the Swiss in general, made that the Schaffhauser were not very impressed... Kind regards, Adrian.
Dear Adrian,
You are very kind. I hadn't heard of Seeland until I read your comment, so I have just had a quick look in Tölke and King and I see that Seeland was a bit of a crook. I think that Alan Myers remarks concerned not so much the hallmarking per se but rather a question of import duty. As far as I am aware there were no restrictions on exporting hallmarked items, but there would have been import duty payable when they were brought back into Britain. It seems possible that if British made and hallmarked cases were sent to Switzerland, made into IWC watches, and then smuggled back into Britian, the import duty would be avoided because the case was already hallmarked. Perhaps just the sort of thing that Seeland might have got up to! However, this would be a complicated way of avoiding the import duty. When Wilsdorf was faced with the same situation he imported bare Aegler movements and had them cased by Dennison of Birmingham, England. But then again, as you say, if an extract from the archives can be issued by IWC for these watches, including the serial number for the case, then it would appear that they must have been assembled complete in Schaffhausen. The question does rather hinge on the specific hallmarks because, as I have explained, different marks were used for native and foreign items. But this is rather "off topic" for Mark's watch, so I suggest that we continue this discussion by email.
2,996 Discussions and CommentsMember since April 2, 2011Hong Kong,
Hong Kong
Big congrats Mark. Sorry, been tardy in my responses because of technical issues. Love the Borgel cased pieces ....
Regards, Shing | email iwcforme1976 (at) gmail (dot) com time does not change us. it just unfolds us. max frisch. all that really belongs to us is time; even he who has nothing else has that. baltasar gracian.
2,633 Discussions and CommentsMember since Sept. 20, 2007
Gents, as per my commitment earlier to check under the balance cock as well under the dial of this piece, I can now confirm - and as they say in the classic's "a picture speaks more than a 1000 words!"; so here goes.
It was really nice to see how the movement and Borgel case fit together - including the additional hardware used to mount the movement.
As you see, indeed the Stauffer Ram stamp found under the Balance Cock.
And not only that, as you see here above indeed the IWC Probus Scafusia stamp found on the main plate, under the dial.
Further investigations done in Schaffhausen as part of getting a COA - Certificate of Authenticity issued for this piece, it seems that watch with original Borgel Case # 6569XX, Movement # 605066 was shipped as a complete watch to Stauffer on March 11th 1915.
There is no evidence that the watch was made for the military, and I will need to follow that trial from within the UK, and MOD records. Further research needed.
The movement is genuine IWC and was made in Schaffhausen.
As regards the Borgel case and it's history, David Seyffer IWC Museum curator took the extra effort to research this for all our benefit and advises that IWC ordered the case from Borgel in April 1914, before the start of WW1.
He writes " From the records we know that the case has been in stock at IWC in June 1914. So early in 1915 the movement was incased and then shipped to Stauffer."
Gents, what a great place this forum is. I wish to thank all of you for the fantastic inputs and research, which has allowed us all, to become wiser as to the wonders hidden within the history of these great timepieces from Schaffhuasen and deep within the archives.
Last edited: 17 May, 2013 - 09:58
Bill
Regards,
Marinus
Dear Adrian, Seasons greetings from Cheshire, nice to hear from you.
I too believe that IWC only supplied either complete watches or bare movements to Stauffer, not parts to be assembled into watches. I am sure that the stamping of the Stauffer ram, and the Stauffer "S&Co. under a crown in an oval" mark were done by IWC, apart from anything else because surely these marks would be applied at an early stage of the production process, before the plates were gilded, and because of the danger of distortion or damage to delicate components later on. I have written to IWC asking them to confirm that they only supplied either complete watches or complete movements to Stauffer, not parts to be assembled into movements. Certainly this is the only way they have ever discussed them with me when I have asked for an extract from the archives, they either confirm that the watch was supplied complete or say "this movement was ... etc".
You say that "The complete movements had no IWC marks or stamps, except the Schaffhausen Bock ..." but I think that most, if not all, had the "IWC Probus Scafusia" mark on the bottom plate, only visible when the dial is removed.
IWC movements supplied to Stauffer were cased in Switzerland before import to Britain, not cased in Britain using British cases. Mark's watch has a Borgel case which was made by the company of François Borgel in Geneva (for those interested there is a history of the Borgel company on my web site at www.vintagewatchstraps.com/Borgel). That the case was not made in Britain is clear from the mark used to identify the Assay office. In Mark's watch this is the mark that looks like an Omega symbol on a crossed background in an oval cameo. If you look at the table Mark has reproduced from my web site you can see that I have identified this as the mark for "London imports", i.e. imported items assayed at the London Assay Office. The London Assay Office used this particular mark for imported items from 1904. If the item had been made in Britain the mark would have been that of a leopards head, used by the London Assay Office since the 14th century. For those interested there is more discussion on hallmarking on my web site at
www.vintagewatchstraps.com/casemarks.html. All Stauffer watches that I have seen with IWC movements have been stamped with the assay office import mark, showing that they were cased in Switzerland, almost certainly at Stauffer's own factory in la Chaux-de-Fonds.
My conclusions from all these ramblings are that the stamping of the Stauffer marks of the Stauffer ram and the "S&Co. under a crown in an oval" mark were most probably done by IWC, and that bare movements supplied to Stauffer were cased in Switzerland, using Swiss made cases either Borgel or other, most probably at Stauffer's own factory in la Chaux-de-Fonds.
Kind regards - David Boettcher
Last edited: 10 December, 2012 - 10:16
Once again I have to admire your research and the results of it.
The story of the silver cases with "London import" is new to me and it is very interesting.
I had several discussions with Alan Myers, the Irish collector and expert of Jones and Seeland watches made by IWC. I showed to him a Seeland with silver case of which the silver hallmarks were typically British. I asked Alan, whether the Seelands were cased in Great Britain. He answered me that this was probably not true but that in his opinion silver cases with British hallmarks were shipped to Schaffhausen and that the Seeland watches,produced for the British market were completely assembled in Schaffhausen. I believe he is right, because the Extract of the Archives for a "British" IWC Seeland will provide the movement number and the casenumber as well. Alan also stated that during those days it was strictly forbidden to export these silver British hallmarked cases to Switzerland and that severe penalties were risked, by doing so. But I guess, the courageous spirit of Wilhelm Tell and the trading spirit of the Swiss in general, made that the Schaffhauser were not very impressed...
Kind regards,
Adrian.
Dear Adrian,
You are very kind. I hadn't heard of Seeland until I read your comment, so I have just had a quick look in Tölke and King and I see that Seeland was a bit of a crook. I think that Alan Myers remarks concerned not so much the hallmarking per se but rather a question of import duty. As far as I am aware there were no restrictions on exporting hallmarked items, but there would have been import duty payable when they were brought back into Britain. It seems possible that if British made and hallmarked cases were sent to Switzerland, made into IWC watches, and then smuggled back into Britian, the import duty would be avoided because the case was already hallmarked. Perhaps just the sort of thing that Seeland might have got up to! However, this would be a complicated way of avoiding the import duty. When Wilsdorf was faced with the same situation he imported bare Aegler movements and had them cased by Dennison of Birmingham, England. But then again, as you say, if an extract from the archives can be issued by IWC for these watches, including the serial number for the case, then it would appear that they must have been assembled complete in Schaffhausen. The question does rather hinge on the specific hallmarks because, as I have explained, different marks were used for native and foreign items. But this is rather "off topic" for Mark's watch, so I suggest that we continue this discussion by email.
Kind regards - David Boettcher
Regards, Shing | email iwcforme1976 (at) gmail (dot) com
time does not change us. it just unfolds us. max frisch.
all that really belongs to us is time; even he who has nothing else has that. baltasar gracian.
It was really nice to see how the movement and Borgel case fit together - including the additional hardware used to mount the movement.
As you see, indeed the Stauffer Ram stamp found under the Balance Cock.
And not only that, as you see here above indeed the IWC Probus Scafusia stamp found on the main plate, under the dial.
Further investigations done in Schaffhausen as part of getting a COA - Certificate of Authenticity issued for this piece, it seems that watch with original Borgel Case # 6569XX, Movement # 605066 was shipped as a complete watch to Stauffer on March 11th 1915.
There is no evidence that the watch was made for the military, and I will need to follow that trial from within the UK, and MOD records. Further research needed.
The movement is genuine IWC and was made in Schaffhausen.
As regards the Borgel case and it's history, David Seyffer IWC Museum curator took the extra effort to research this for all our benefit and advises that IWC ordered the case from Borgel in April 1914, before the start of WW1.
He writes " From the records we know that the case has been in stock at IWC in June 1914. So early in 1915 the movement was incased and then shipped to Stauffer."
Gents, what a great place this forum is. I wish to thank all of you for the fantastic inputs and research, which has allowed us all, to become wiser as to the wonders hidden within the history of these great timepieces from Schaffhuasen and deep within the archives.
Best regards
Mark
Last edited: 16 April, 2013 - 00:36
Here is a bigger version of your Ram:
This picture was taken during the 2007 Collectors Forum Meeting in Schaffhausen.
Kind regards,
Clemens
I knew you would get to the bottom of this. Great pickup.