1,908 Discussions and CommentsMember since Aug. 4, 2001
Ralph Ehrismann Wrote:The CoE watches are very intersting watches.
It is a pitty, most of theme are polished do blank sterling. They where blackened, as many are still in the inside.
So if someone finds blackend one, please do not polish it, its original! I know, most of them, when they reach the state to be sold/bought (as the 6424) are allready polished.
regards
Ralph
Hi Ralph, Do you have a good image of an unpolished CoE watch, so we know how they looked like originally? I am quite sure the US Army did not request the cases be blackened using the Niello technique, which is expensive and difficult to master. The cases may have been originally blackened using Liver of Sulfur, since it is cheap, easy to apply and achieves the desired result quickly. Assuming this was the case, it will be easy to re-blacken the polished cases of CoE watches and bring them back to the original glory.
Ralph Ehrismann Wrote:The CoE watches are very intersting watches.
It is a pitty, most of theme are polished do blank sterling. They where blackened, as many are still in the inside.
So if someone finds blackend one, please do not polish it, its original! I know, most of them, when they reach the state to be sold/bought (as the 6424) are allready polished.
regards
Ralph
Hi Ralph,
I have heard that about the blackened cases, not only from you but also JimmyR (here) and Thomas Koenig. I don't doubt you, but I'm wondering, however, what documentation for that exists.
One reason I ask is that I see so very many (relatively) of these CoE watches, not just IWC movement ones, with polished cases and non-luminous dials, yet the cases reflect use. Could the US military have changed them upon or after delivery? I know when I served in the US Army we had to polish everything metal; we lived with Brasso. Or could there have been more than one order and specification, especially given the quantities?
And this dial on close inspection looks completely untouched, so the luminous compound just couldn't have magically disappeared, not only here but on dozens of others.
164 Discussions and CommentsMember since July 9, 2009
Michael Friedberg Wrote in reply to:
Ralph Ehrismann Wrote:The CoE watches are very intersting watches.
It is a pitty, most of theme are polished do blank sterling. They where blackened, as many are still in the inside.
So if someone finds blackend one, please do not polish it, its original! I know, most of them, when they reach the state to be sold/bought (as the 6424) are allready polished.
regards
Ralph
Hi Ralph,
I have heard that about the blackened cases, not only from you but also JimmyR (here) and Thomas Koenig. I don't doubt you, but I'm wondering, however, what documentation for that exists.
One reason I ask is that I see so very many (relatively) of these CoE watches, not just IWC movement ones, with polished cases and non-luminous dials, yet the cases reflect use. Could the US military have changed them upon or after delivery? I know when I served in the US Army we had to polish everything metal; we lived with Brasso. Or could there have been more than one order and specification, especially given the quantities?
And this dial on close inspection looks completely untouched, so the luminous compound just couldn't have magically disappeared, not only here but on dozens of others.
Enquiring minds want to know :) Thanks.
Hi Michael, here´s a copy of the original order from the purchasing agent for Switzerland for the American Expeditionary Forces, for 2000 half-chronometer watches from Vacheron & Constantin. Look at the second sentance, there explicitly ordered, oxydised silver case, luminous dials and hands. That´s how they all were originally.
2,149 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 23, 2001
Hi Michael, When I read about "Corps of Engineer" watches, I cannot avoid to think about the feeling that some watch manufacturers must have experienced in 1918. Imagine, one is the owner of the Ulysse Nardin factory. All of the sudden a letter arrives from the American War Department : "Can you please build 10.000 pocket watches for us, but we need them immediately". It is clear that Ulysse Nardin loved the order but could by no means fulfil the requirements of the important client, a client that was going to pay for sure.So what to do now? Ulysse Nardin took the order and built as much watches as they could. But that was not enough. So they contacted IWC and Zenith to produce those numbers of PW's that they were unable to make themselves. The dials were identical : marked with the Ulysse Nardin logo. The movements however were 100 % IWC. This watch is the perfect example. The original dials were Radium-226 loaded. As there is no sign of this, nor any sign of wear and tear, it might be that this is a replacement dial. Kind regards, Adrian, (alwaysiwc).
2,149 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 23, 2001
About the original black colour of the CoE watches. For sure this was not "niello". Niello technique involves filling carved and cisseled grooves with powder containing silver and several other components ( please see my contribution about pocket watch case decorations on this forum). This powder melts at about 800 ° Celsius and attaches to silver. No niello without heating the watch case until 800 ° Celsius. CoE watches were blackened without heating them to high temperatures. The CoE watches were completely black, outside but also the inner lids were blackened. This was done as described correctly, by liver of sulphur , an organic substance containing sulpher. Sulpher is the element that relatively easy reacts with silver to become silver sulphid (Ag2S). Silver sulphid is black. Covering the blank silver cases with silver sulphid creates a very thin layer( microns) of mat black colour. However, this layer was that thin and vulnerable that just by "using" the watch, it was polished off easily. Therefore none of the used CoE watches has an intact black surface. The silver sulphid is still present on the bottom of the stamped military inscription and if one is lucky on an inner lid, not exposed to wear and tear. Kind regards, Adrian, (alwaysiwc).
164 Discussions and CommentsMember since July 9, 2009
Hi Adrian, it must have been a manufacturers dream (or nightmare) when the order came. Since you mentioned Zenith, they were the other manufacturer (apart from Vacheron & Constantin and Ulysse Nardin) with their own separate order and their signature on the dial. I do believe my previous reply has been misunderstood, I simply said the cases were supplied by Huguenin Freres (who became famous for the Niello technic) to all three chosen manufacturers. I also supplied a link to a page, where a step by step explaination is given to the making of Niello artifacts; Niello Work... Another strange fact; When the the Americans arrived on European soil, they arrived with Ca.1000 Hamilton watches that were not marked Corps of Engineers on the caseback, nor were the cases blackened, but they were marked Hamilton Engineer Corps U.S.A. on the dial.
2,149 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 23, 2001
Hi Jimmy, Thanks for your comment. The real question to me about these CoE watches is the following one. The US watch industry, during the time of W.W.I had 3 huge national watch manufacturers : Elgin, Waltham and Hamilton. These 3 giants were capable of producing ten thousands of military watches, clocks, ship chronometers, navigational watches of the highest quality during a few years , when W.W. II arrived. Why did they not produce the CoE watches, all by themselves during W.W. I? Was it just a matter of capacity? Any clue? Kind regards, Adrian, (alwaysiwc).
164 Discussions and CommentsMember since July 9, 2009
That Adrian, must be the million dollar question, why indeed did they do such a thing? I´m afraid I´m not capable of supplying a plausible answer, at least I haven´t read any documents or credible literature anywhere, where the reason was given. Utterly strange, the mind boggles!
Hi Ralph,
Do you have a good image of an unpolished CoE watch, so we know how they looked like originally?
I am quite sure the US Army did not request the cases be blackened using the Niello technique, which is expensive and difficult to master.
The cases may have been originally blackened using Liver of Sulfur, since it is cheap, easy to apply and achieves the desired result quickly.
Assuming this was the case, it will be easy to re-blacken the polished cases of CoE watches and bring them back to the original glory.
clepsydra
ad fontes...
Hi Ralph,
I have heard that about the blackened cases, not only from you but also JimmyR (here) and Thomas Koenig. I don't doubt you, but I'm wondering, however, what documentation for that exists.
One reason I ask is that I see so very many (relatively) of these CoE watches, not just IWC movement ones, with polished cases and non-luminous dials, yet the cases reflect use. Could the US military have changed them upon or after delivery? I know when I served in the US Army we had to polish everything metal; we lived with Brasso. Or could there have been more than one order and specification, especially given the quantities?
And this dial on close inspection looks completely untouched, so the luminous compound just couldn't have magically disappeared, not only here but on dozens of others.
Enquiring minds want to know :) Thanks.
Regards, Michael
mfriedberg@iwcforum.com
Last edited: 22 December, 2012 - 22:30
Hi Michael,
here´s a copy of the original order from the purchasing agent for Switzerland for the American Expeditionary Forces, for 2000 half-chronometer watches from Vacheron & Constantin. Look at the second sentance, there explicitly ordered, oxydised silver case, luminous dials and hands. That´s how they all were originally.
Best Regards.
Jimmy
Last edited: 23 December, 2012 - 15:22
Best regards
Mark
Last edited: 16 April, 2013 - 00:36
When I read about "Corps of Engineer" watches, I cannot avoid to think about the feeling that some watch manufacturers must have experienced in 1918.
Imagine, one is the owner of the Ulysse Nardin factory. All of the sudden a letter arrives from the American War Department : "Can you please build 10.000 pocket watches for us, but we need them immediately".
It is clear that Ulysse Nardin loved the order but could by no means fulfil the requirements of the important client, a client that was going to pay for sure.So what to do now? Ulysse Nardin took the order and built as much watches as they could. But that was not enough. So they contacted IWC and Zenith to produce those numbers of PW's that they were unable to make themselves. The dials were identical : marked with the Ulysse Nardin logo. The movements however were 100 % IWC. This watch is the perfect example.
The original dials were Radium-226 loaded. As there is no sign of this, nor any sign of wear and tear, it might be that this is a replacement dial.
Kind regards,
Adrian,
(alwaysiwc).
For sure this was not "niello".
Niello technique involves filling carved and cisseled grooves with powder containing silver and several other components ( please see my contribution about pocket watch case decorations on this forum). This powder melts at about 800 ° Celsius and attaches to silver. No niello without heating the watch case until 800 ° Celsius. CoE watches were blackened without heating them to high temperatures.
The CoE watches were completely black, outside but also the inner lids were blackened. This was done as described correctly, by liver of sulphur , an organic substance containing sulpher. Sulpher is the element that relatively easy reacts with silver to become silver sulphid (Ag2S). Silver sulphid is black. Covering the blank silver cases with silver sulphid creates a very thin layer( microns) of mat black colour. However, this layer was that thin and vulnerable that just by "using" the watch, it was polished off easily. Therefore none of the used CoE watches has an intact black surface. The silver sulphid is still present on the bottom of the stamped military inscription and if one is lucky on an inner lid, not exposed to wear and tear.
Kind regards,
Adrian,
(alwaysiwc).
I do believe my previous reply has been misunderstood, I simply said the cases were supplied by Huguenin Freres (who became famous for the Niello technic) to all three chosen manufacturers.
I also supplied a link to a page, where a step by step explaination is given to the making of Niello artifacts; Niello Work...
Another strange fact; When the the Americans arrived on European soil, they arrived with Ca.1000 Hamilton watches that were not marked Corps of Engineers on the caseback, nor were the cases blackened, but they were marked Hamilton Engineer Corps U.S.A. on the dial.
Regards
Jimmy
Last edited: 23 December, 2012 - 23:06
Thanks for your comment. The real question to me about these CoE watches is the following one. The US watch industry, during the time of W.W.I had 3 huge national watch manufacturers : Elgin, Waltham and Hamilton. These 3 giants were capable of producing ten thousands of military watches, clocks, ship chronometers, navigational watches of the highest quality during a few years , when W.W. II arrived.
Why did they not produce the CoE watches, all by themselves during W.W. I?
Was it just a matter of capacity? Any clue?
Kind regards,
Adrian,
(alwaysiwc).
I´m afraid I´m not capable of supplying a plausible answer, at least I haven´t read any documents or credible literature anywhere, where the reason was given.
Utterly strange, the mind boggles!
Regards
Jimmy