JimmyR Wrote:That Adrian, must be the million dollar question, why indeed did they do such a thing? I´m afraid I´m not capable of supplying a plausible answer, at least I haven´t read any documents or credible literature anywhere, where the reason was given. Utterly strange, the mind boggles!
Regards
Jimmy
Just a wild guess: price? Did comparable American watches the sell anywhere near 96 CHF (and we'd need to figure out almost century old exchange rates, too).
166 Discussions and CommentsMember since July 9, 2009
I found this National Geographic advert from Nov 1918. Now we can imagine what a Hamilton Railroad Grade pocket watch cost those days, what I haven´t found, was a US$-CH Franken Converter from that time. Traded currency and inport/export commerce was usually paid in gold. What I did find was, 1913...1 British £ = 20.43 German Mark In 1920/21 the exchange rate of the German currency was at 60 marks for a dollar January 1923 already 10 450, 70 000 in May 1923, in July, a million, in September, 38 million. On 20 November 1923, the maximum inflation reached 4.2 trillion marks per U.S. dollar Maybe someone knows more? Advertised at $32 to $160(for a gold cased PW)
Interesting to see the price had risen for these watches, as the price was advertised at $28 to $150(for a gold cased) in May 1918 and at $34 to $170 in May 1919.
1,910 Discussions and CommentsMember since Aug. 4, 2001
Hi Jimmy, Thanks for enlightening us on the CoE watches. The purchase order specifies the movement must be half-chronometer, the cases oxydized silver, and the hands and hour numbers be luminous, but does not specify if the dial is to be painted or enamel. Do you know if the dial of the Nardin with IWC cal 52 is painted or enamel?
166 Discussions and CommentsMember since July 9, 2009
clepsydra Wrote:Do you know if the dial of the Nardin with IWC cal 52 is painted or enamel?
Hi Tony, I have a picture of the reverse of the dial of a V&C (examined by) CoE watch, uptill now, the ones that I have seen were all enamelled. Here´s one where the Luminous compound/paint had also been removed, in some time during its life, and someone was in the process of "cleaning" the case, when I bought it..
1,910 Discussions and CommentsMember since Aug. 4, 2001
Thanks Jimmy, Since all the dials seem to be enameled, it would have been easy to remove the luminous paint from the hour numbers (which would have been decaying anyway) without damaging the dial. Enamel is brittle but hard and virtually scratchproof. It will bee just as easy to repaint them without causing irreversible damage to the dial. A similar situation applies to the blackened silver cases. Many cases could have lost part of the black patina anyway through continuous wear, and it will be easy to restore them to the original condition by re-oxidizing them with liver of sulfur. This re-oxidation can also be easily reversed, without damaging the case. I realize these actions are controversial and anathema to many, and I would not suggest them if the changes in the CoE watches had happened as a consequence their military lives. But since they are the result of ignorance, I believe they are acceptable. Just a thought. :-)
2,149 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 23, 2001
A few points, Jimmy, if I may. Regarding the advertising provided by you and dating from November 1918,it is clear that this exactly the period where the CoE watches were at greatest demand. Of course nobody knew beforehand that the W.W. I was going to end in 1918. If the US would have known or guessed, they would not have ordered thousands of CoE watches of which all came too late for active service. Exactly this happened to the many thousands of W.W.W.watches, known as the "dirty dozen". All of them came available during 1945, when peace was achieved in May 1945. The point of our moderator : the possible difference in price between American and Swiss watches has become clear comparing prices between USA and Switzerland. They were about the same. I think it is not correct to compare prices between any nation and Germany. It is well known that at a point in time one could not buy a bread for one million Deutsch Marks in Germany. As you point out, Thomas Koenig is the author of the best and all complete article about the CoE watches. Unfortunately it has been published in German language only. Thomas could not find any reason why the American watch industry of those days could not produce more CoE watches than they did. For me the mystery remains unsolved..... Kind regards, Adrian (alwaysiwc).
1,910 Discussions and CommentsMember since Aug. 4, 2001
For what it’s worth here is my theory of why the US Corps or Engineers ordered Swiss and not American made watches. In case anybody asks, I have absolutely nothing to back up this theory other than it was practical and made logistical sense, a very American quality.
The US expeditionary forces were already in Europe when the order was made, and made no sense ordering the watches from US manufacturers, and then have them shipped to the frontline, crossing the Atlantic by cargo ship, with all the risks, costs and time it entailed.
alwaysiwc Wrote: The point of our moderator : the possible difference in price between American and Swiss watches has become clear comparing prices between USA and Switzerland. They were about the same. I think it is not correct to compare prices between any nation and Germany. It is well known that at a point in time one could not buy a bread for one million Deutsch Marks in Germany. .. Kind regards, Adrian (alwaysiwc).
Dear Adrian, I concur with what you say except for you conclusion saying the cost was about the same. No one can know that without comparing historic exchange rates.
For example, here's a chart comparing the Franc to the dollar from 1953 until today: Unfortunately it doesn't go back nearly far enough, but my point is that for decades it was generally 4 Francs to dollar, unlike today. If that ratio existed 35 years earlier the Swiss watches would have sold for much less than their US counterparts. And absent runaway inflation, like in Germany, currency fluctuations were much less back then.
2,149 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 23, 2001
Dear Michael I guess your graph is not extremely helpful because, as you state,it goes back to 1953 and that is 35 years after W.W.I ended. On top of that we had a scond W.W. during this period. But, you have a very good point,thinking of the exchange rate in 1918. I found on the internet that the US dollar was worth 4,38 Swiss Francs. So it seems that it indeed was worthwhile for the USA to order Swiss watches above American ones! Very interesting. Kind regards, Adrian. (alwaysiwc).
1,910 Discussions and CommentsMember since Aug. 4, 2001
It is interesting the importance that is being given to cost in detriment of operational considerations. Making those watches in the US may very well have been cheaper, but bringing them to the frontline all the way from the US would have been inefficient, expensive and very risky.
Just a wild guess: price? Did comparable American watches the sell anywhere near 96 CHF (and we'd need to figure out almost century old exchange rates, too).
Regards, Michael
mfriedberg@iwcforum.com
Last edited: 23 December, 2012 - 23:26
What I did find was, 1913...1 British £ = 20.43 German Mark
In 1920/21 the exchange rate of the German currency was at 60 marks for a dollar
January 1923 already 10 450, 70 000 in May 1923, in July, a million, in September, 38 million. On 20 November 1923, the maximum inflation reached 4.2 trillion marks per U.S. dollar
Maybe someone knows more?
Advertised at $32 to $160(for a gold cased PW)
Interesting to see the price had risen for these watches, as the price was advertised at $28 to $150(for a gold cased) in May 1918 and at $34 to $170 in May 1919.
Last edited: 24 December, 2012 - 01:45
Thanks for enlightening us on the CoE watches.
The purchase order specifies the movement must be half-chronometer, the cases oxydized silver, and the hands and hour numbers be luminous, but does not specify if the dial is to be painted or enamel.
Do you know if the dial of the Nardin with IWC cal 52 is painted or enamel?
clepsydra
ad fontes...
Last edited: 24 December, 2012 - 03:08
I have a picture of the reverse of the dial of a V&C (examined by) CoE watch, uptill now, the ones that I have seen were all enamelled. Here´s one where the Luminous compound/paint had also been removed, in some time during its life, and someone was in the process of "cleaning" the case, when I bought it..
Last edited: 24 December, 2012 - 15:07
Since all the dials seem to be enameled, it would have been easy to remove the luminous paint from the hour numbers (which would have been decaying anyway) without damaging the dial. Enamel is brittle but hard and virtually scratchproof. It will bee just as easy to repaint them without causing irreversible damage to the dial.
A similar situation applies to the blackened silver cases. Many cases could have lost part of the black patina anyway through continuous wear, and it will be easy to restore them to the original condition by re-oxidizing them with liver of sulfur. This re-oxidation can also be easily reversed, without damaging the case.
I realize these actions are controversial and anathema to many, and I would not suggest them if the changes in the CoE watches had happened as a consequence their military lives. But since they are the result of ignorance, I believe they are acceptable.
Just a thought. :-)
clepsydra
ad fontes...
Last edited: 24 December, 2012 - 16:24
Regarding the advertising provided by you and dating from November 1918,it is clear that this exactly the period where the CoE watches were at greatest demand. Of course nobody knew beforehand that the W.W. I was going to end in 1918. If the US would have known or guessed, they would not have ordered thousands of CoE watches of which all came too late for active service.
Exactly this happened to the many thousands of W.W.W.watches, known as the "dirty dozen". All of them came available during 1945, when peace was achieved in May 1945.
The point of our moderator : the possible difference in price between American and Swiss watches has become clear comparing prices between USA and Switzerland. They were about the same. I think it is not correct to compare prices between any nation and Germany. It is well known that at a point in time one could not buy a bread for one million Deutsch Marks in Germany.
As you point out, Thomas Koenig is the author of the best and all complete article about the CoE watches. Unfortunately it has been published in German language only. Thomas could not find any reason why the American watch industry of those days could not produce more CoE watches than they did. For me the mystery remains unsolved.....
Kind regards,
Adrian
(alwaysiwc).
The US expeditionary forces were already in Europe when the order was made, and made no sense ordering the watches from US manufacturers, and then have them shipped to the frontline, crossing the Atlantic by cargo ship, with all the risks, costs and time it entailed.
clepsydra
ad fontes...
Last edited: 24 December, 2012 - 21:56
Dear Adrian, I concur with what you say except for you conclusion saying the cost was about the same. No one can know that without comparing historic exchange rates.
For example, here's a chart comparing the Franc to the dollar from 1953 until today:
Unfortunately it doesn't go back nearly far enough, but my point is that for decades it was generally 4 Francs to dollar, unlike today. If that ratio existed 35 years earlier the Swiss watches would have sold for much less than their US counterparts. And absent runaway inflation, like in Germany, currency fluctuations were much less back then.
Regards, Michael
mfriedberg@iwcforum.com
Last edited: 24 December, 2012 - 20:49
Dear Michael
I guess your graph is not extremely helpful because, as you state,it goes back to 1953 and that is 35 years after W.W.I ended. On top of that we had a scond W.W. during this period.
But, you have a very good point,thinking of the exchange rate in 1918. I found on the internet that the US dollar was worth 4,38 Swiss Francs. So it seems that it indeed was worthwhile for the USA to order Swiss watches above American ones! Very interesting.
Kind regards,
Adrian.
(alwaysiwc).
Making those watches in the US may very well have been cheaper, but bringing them to the frontline all the way from the US would have been inefficient, expensive and very risky.
clepsydra
ad fontes...