1,096 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 28, 2001
Till the year 1893, IWC build a small quantity of genuine 20 lig. movements. Theses movements are slighthly bigger and in small details different. The usual way to build bigger watches, was to use a ring, to increase the diameter of the movement. The selling books of IWC indicates the diameter of the movement with the adaptation ting in the case (the case size) so this is not a realy source to find out what diameterers IWC really built.
Some of the Seeland calibers where only built as 20lig. (c.25 & c.26). This are, as the Jones, the early movements not considered here.
The c.IWC (c.52/53) and also the Elgin I (c.32/c33) were built in this bigger 20 lig. diameter.
To be shure this is true, I organized a meeting of two Hunter Elgin I's, a 19 lig. and a 20 lig. And it is true, the 20 lig. is has really a bigger diameter (approx 2mm).
It would be interesting to find other "big ones". The price lists and spare parts lists indicate also 21" movements. Are there some out in the world? (I don't think so).
Here the image of the two Elgin I, the smaller 19 lig.left and the bigger 20 lig. at the right hand side.
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.
I wonder why. None of the Jones Calibres were 20 lihr, ,andthe first two were c. 25 and 26 Seelands. The c.25 always impressed me, like the smaller c.24, as an inexpensive movement built to a price point --so why go to the cost of enlarging it, when a ring would suffice?
1,096 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 28, 2001
In theory, the accuracy of a watch includes the energy stored in the balance. When you build a bigger watch you have the chance to increase also the diameter (and in this way the motion energy) of the balance. If this was really done, is the question.
With the huge mouvements (PW-Size) we have now, also balance should have be increased. But the balance is mostly quite small (size of a 12 lig movement c.89) but the energy was increased by increasing the frequence.
Regards
Ralph
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.
217 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 27, 2001
Hi Ralph, as far as I remember there should be a Sav. c.IWC 20lig. (c.53) in my collection, built 1889. During this weekend I'll look for the watch and send pictures, compared with a 19 lig c.53. I think that the last 20lig. pw's were built in 1893(?)
1,096 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 28, 2001
Hans-Georg Aberle Wrote:Hi Ralph, as far as I remember there should be a Sav. c.IWC 20lig. (c.53) in my collection, built 1889. During this weekend I'll look for the watch and send pictures, compared with a 19 lig c.53. I think that the last 20lig. pw's were built in 1893(?)
Yes, in 1893 a last serie of Lep c.52 (why Lepine? People with money buy Savonette!). But in the spare parts catalog from 1906 it is marked, to get most movement 18lig. to 21 lig. (I think mainly the diameter in the case) This is an other indication that the real 20 liners build had just a bigger base plate, but even they are quite rare.
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.
217 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 27, 2001
Here are the results;
The left pw is a "normal" c.53 with 19 lig., built in 1924 the right pw is a Sav. c.IWC 20lig. (c.53), movement no.417XX and in the archive books it has 20 lig. It is an obviously larger and heavier watch (136 grams!). Both case-materials are 585 (14K) gold.
Case-diameters: left 52 mm right 55 mm movement-diam.: 41,2 mm 41,4 mm Left pw: movement diameter with the rim of the case that keeps the movement: 43 mm (near 19 lig) right pw: movement diameter with the small ring (tip of the pencil): 45,1 mm, that are just 20 lig. Two results: the 19 lig. movement is not exact 19 lig. large, the 20 lig. movement has the same diameter as the 19 lig. pw. The extension to 20 lig.has been done by a ring, as Ralph supposed. This statement of coures can only made for the watch I described. Perhaps there are other examples to prove it.
1,096 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 28, 2001
Hans-Georg Aberle Wrote:Here are the results;
The left pw is a "normal" c.53 with 19 lig., built in 1924 the right pw is a Sav. c.IWC 20lig. (c.53), movement no.417XX and in the archive books it has 20 lig. It is an obviously larger and heavier watch (136 grams!). Both case-materials are 585 (14K) gold.
Case-diameters: left 52 mm right 55 mm movement-diam.: 41,2 mm 41,4 mm Left pw: movement diameter with the rim of the case that keeps the movement: 43 mm (near 19 lig) right pw: movement diameter with the small ring (tip of the pencil): 45,1 mm, that are just 20 lig. Two results: the 19 lig. movement is not exact 19 lig. large, the 20 lig. movement has the same diameter as the 19 lig. pw. The extension to 20 lig.has been done by a ring, as Ralph supposed. This statement of coures can only made for the watch I described. Perhaps there are other examples to prove it.
Wow! What a nice case. (the right hand indicated 20 lig.) with 136 g its also a quite big an heavy one. I don't think that I have something similar in my collection. What is interesting, the movement should be a real 20 ligner. (Could you send me, if possible me by email the complet case and movement serial number, many thanx)
I have, in my books at least, two movements, without case which are indicated "Sav c.IWC 20 lig". But I have first to find them.
Also there should be a "Lep c.IWC 19/20 Lig" with 50% chance to be a 20 ligner. So I have to measure those too.
many thanx for the pictures and best regards
Ralph Ehrismann
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.
1,096 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 28, 2001
I was grabbing in my "private pharmacy" of old single pocketwatch movements.
The I found two Sav c.IWC 20 lig. (not really in good condition) and a 19 lig. of the same periode.
The 20 lig diameter has to be measured on the front side of the movement. the 20 lig measures approx. 44.5mm and the 19 lig. approx 42.5mm
On the back the measures are 41.5mm and approx. 40mm.
On the picture you also see the 3 generations of the winding system.
In the center on the 19 lig, the oldest, the nut with holes, the earliest system, then on the left, the 2nd with the 2 screws and the 2 small discs and at the right hand side the "newest" version with just the screws. The last version was also indicated in the movement lists as "tr." or "transformé" (transformed). Later, in 1904, the system was changed again to the system with the 3 small screws on the winding wheels.
I wanted to put also a 18 lig. of the same generation on ths picture. I dont have one, as they were produced in a very small quantity.
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.
217 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 27, 2001
Hi Ralph, I have two 18 lig. Lepines c.55 (c.Schaffhausen) in my collection, built 1890 and 1893( No. 602XX and 926XX). Would that be interesting for your investigation? H.G.
1,096 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 28, 2001
Hans-Georg Aberle Wrote:Here are the results;
The left pw is a "normal" c.53 with 19 lig., built in 1924 the right pw is a Sav. c.IWC 20lig. (c.53), movement no.417XX and in the archive books it has 20 lig. It is an obviously larger and heavier watch (136 grams!). Both case-materials are 585 (14K) gold.
Case-diameters: left 52 mm right 55 mm movement-diam.: 41,2 mm 41,4 mm Left pw: movement diameter with the rim of the case that keeps the movement: 43 mm (near 19 lig) right pw: movement diameter with the small ring (tip of the pencil): 45,1 mm, that are just 20 lig. Two results: the 19 lig. movement is not exact 19 lig. large, the 20 lig. movement has the same diameter as the 19 lig. pw. The extension to 20 lig.has been done by a ring, as Ralph supposed. This statement of coures can only made for the watch I described. Perhaps there are other examples to prove it.
Dear Hans-Georg
The back diameter of your watch is OK.
The difference of the back to the front diameter (the size of the case) seems to be quite big for the 20 lig. movements, close to 2 mm per side!
regards
Ralph
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.
The selling books of IWC indicates the diameter of the movement with the adaptation ting in the case (the case size) so this is not a realy source to find out what diameterers IWC really built.
Some of the Seeland calibers where only built as 20lig. (c.25 & c.26). This are, as the Jones, the early movements not considered here.
The c.IWC (c.52/53) and also the Elgin I (c.32/c33) were built in this bigger 20 lig. diameter.
To be shure this is true, I organized a meeting of two Hunter Elgin I's, a 19 lig. and a 20 lig. And it is true, the 20 lig. is has really a bigger diameter (approx 2mm).
It would be interesting to find other "big ones". The price lists and spare parts lists indicate also 21" movements. Are there some out in the world? (I don't think so).
Here the image of the two Elgin I, the smaller 19 lig.left and the bigger 20 lig. at the right hand side.
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.
Regards, Michael
mfriedberg@iwcforum.com
When you build a bigger watch you have the chance to increase also the diameter (and in this way the motion energy) of the balance.
If this was really done, is the question.
With the huge mouvements (PW-Size) we have now, also balance should have be increased. But the balance is mostly quite small (size of a 12 lig movement c.89) but the energy was increased by increasing the frequence.
Regards
Ralph
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.
Last edited: 28 February, 2013 - 09:48
as far as I remember there should be a Sav. c.IWC 20lig. (c.53) in my collection, built 1889. During this weekend I'll look for the watch and send pictures, compared with a 19 lig c.53.
I think that the last 20lig. pw's were built in 1893(?)
Yes, in 1893 a last serie of Lep c.52 (why Lepine? People with money buy Savonette!).
But in the spare parts catalog from 1906 it is marked, to get most movement 18lig. to 21 lig. (I think mainly the diameter in the case)
This is an other indication that the real 20 liners build had just a bigger base plate, but even they are quite rare.
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.
Last edited: 1 March, 2013 - 18:13
The left pw is a "normal" c.53 with 19 lig., built in 1924
the right pw is a Sav. c.IWC 20lig. (c.53), movement no.417XX and in the archive books it has 20 lig. It is an obviously larger and heavier watch (136 grams!). Both case-materials are 585 (14K) gold.
Case-diameters: left 52 mm right 55 mm
movement-diam.: 41,2 mm 41,4 mm
Left pw: movement diameter with the rim of the case that keeps the movement: 43 mm (near 19 lig)
right pw: movement diameter with the small ring (tip of the pencil): 45,1 mm,
that are just 20 lig.
Two results: the 19 lig. movement is not exact 19 lig. large, the 20 lig. movement has the same diameter as the 19 lig. pw. The extension to 20 lig.has been done by a ring, as Ralph supposed.
This statement of coures can only made for the watch I described. Perhaps there are other examples to prove it.
Wow! What a nice case. (the right hand indicated 20 lig.)
with 136 g its also a quite big an heavy one.
I don't think that I have something similar in my collection.
What is interesting, the movement should be a real 20 ligner.
(Could you send me, if possible me by email the complet case and movement serial number, many thanx)
I have, in my books at least, two movements, without case which are indicated "Sav c.IWC 20 lig".
But I have first to find them.
Also there should be a "Lep c.IWC 19/20 Lig" with 50% chance to be a 20 ligner. So I have to measure those too.
many thanx for the pictures and best regards
Ralph Ehrismann
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.
The I found two Sav c.IWC 20 lig. (not really in good condition) and a 19 lig. of the same periode.
The 20 lig diameter has to be measured on the front side of the movement.
the 20 lig measures approx. 44.5mm and the 19 lig. approx 42.5mm
On the back the measures are 41.5mm and approx. 40mm.
On the picture you also see the 3 generations of the winding system.
In the center on the 19 lig, the oldest, the nut with holes,
the earliest system, then on the left, the 2nd with the 2 screws and the 2 small discs and at the right hand side the "newest" version with just the screws. The last version was also indicated in the movement lists as "tr." or "transformé" (transformed).
Later, in 1904, the system was changed again to the system with the 3 small screws on the winding wheels.
I wanted to put also a 18 lig. of the same generation on ths picture.
I dont have one, as they were produced in a very small quantity.
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.
Last edited: 3 March, 2013 - 08:38
I have two 18 lig. Lepines c.55 (c.Schaffhausen) in my collection, built 1890 and 1893( No. 602XX and 926XX). Would that be interesting for your investigation?
H.G.
Dear Hans-Georg
The back diameter of your watch is OK.
The difference of the back to the front diameter (the size of the case) seems to be quite big for the 20 lig. movements, close to 2 mm per side!
regards
Ralph
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.
Last edited: 3 March, 2013 - 19:28