IWC Schaffhausen

Edit by Silverkat (6 Mar): Title should read "automatic" and not "manual wind" - see discussion below

Hi, I have read up and done my best to try and identify this particular watch that belonged to my late step-father and have determined that the movement is a calibre 852 (from 1952) and the case is 18K gold from circa 1954 (as per the id number inside the back case).







The particulars to my question actually relates to the fact that this watch has an 18K gold band that has been sodered to the outer case that, as best I can determine, might have been an original full (watch case and band) one 18k piece from IWC as I have been unable to find any trace of modifications to the outside of the piece. Can anybody direct me to a source where I might be able to confirm whether the "full" piece might be an original IWC? I have been unable to find any full "one piece" (watch and band) IWC gold watches from the early 1950's to be able to otherwise compare.

The watch is otherwise in excellent working condition. Any assistance with this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Humbly yours,

a newbie

Last edited: 6 March, 2013 - 15:45

Thank you to all that have read my original comment.

I have since spoken to a 3rd party that is familiar with IWC watches and they informed me that likely the gold band is not an IWC original since, if it was, it would have some logo or other identifying element indicating that it is an IWC product. This does make sense to me since I have recently seen some original bands from IWC and they all had a large IWC logo on them. Of course, I am not 100% sure that they did that in the early 1950's, but chances are that they did.

Hopefully this comment will be of value to other IWC owners that may have their own doubts with regards to the bands on their watches.

Thank you to all of the forum participants for providing an invaluable service to all of us "rookies". Best wishes to all.

I would be inclined to think that your information is correct. You mention "ID number" in the case - do you mean the serial number inside the case back?

Besides a serial number on the inside case back, there should or could also be a model Reference - something like 123XY. Can you check.

If your not into wearing a gold milanese bracelet like this, and want to wear the watch then, once you have ascertained and confirmed 100% that the bracelet and solder job is not "original" there is enough gold on that bracelet to finance it's removal and expert soldering on to the case of either a pair of near original shapped lugs or some gold rungs to attach a nice leather strap.

Either way, Id definately have the watch serviced - its a nice timepiece.

Best regards
Mark

Last edited: 16 April, 2013 - 00:36

I'm not so sure. IWC didn't make bracelets back then and sourced most through Gay Freres, a supplier. They made a few gold watches with bracelets that seldom made the catalogs, due to limited production or special orders. So it could be "original", but it's almost impossible to tell.

Regards, Michael
mfriedberg@iwcforum.com

its hard to say 、、、you can check the id number

Thank you for continuing this thread discussion. Really appreciate it.

Mark, you are correct that I meant the serial number inside the case back. In fact, after reading your reply, I went back and had a closer look and discovered that there is in fact more info on the inside of the back of the case than what I had originally seen. The glare from the gold in the case is so strong that unless you angle it just right, it is impossible to see anything at all engraved in it. However, this is what it shows:
18K
0.750

International Watch Co.
Swiss

(the full IWC round logo!)

1294058

There was, however, no "model" number there. When I did the search of the serial numbers at the http://moeb.on-rev.com/dyIWC/dyIWCm.irev site, it told me that the 1294058 serial number was from "circa 1954" date and the movement serial number 1264*** told me that it was a calibre 852 (1952).

After discovering that I had missed some data on the case back I also went and examined the gold band that I originally thought did not contain anything and, once again, with the right angle discovered that it had two sets of numbers on the clasping end:
01
191153

The "191153" is actually "indented" that does lead me to believe that it was engraved at a different time than the "01" that is a "flat" engraving and I believe it may stand for a particular date, in this case "19 Nov 1953".

Given the possible explanation provided by Michael regarding sourcing of bracelets to Gay Freres, I am somewhat inclined to believe once again that there is a possibility that the watch was originally a full piece (watch and band) given that (and knowing how my stepfather was) I felt from the outset that he would have purchased the watch "as a full piece" since I did not see him going to the trouble of adding the gold bracelet at a later date. I could also see him wanting a gold band to go with the gold casing, gold numbering and gold hands in the watch. This is also potentially confirmed to me now by my finding the 191153 engraving in the gold band and might be further supported by the fact that the serial numbers indicate that the gold back dates from circa 1954 (after 19 Nov 1953 for some special celebratory date) whereas the movement is an original 1952 cal 852.

Given all of this further information, I am now even less inclined to separate the gold band from the watch itself as I now feel that there is a greater probability that this may in fact be one of those "limited production" or "special orders" that Michael referred to.

Does anybody know if "Gay Freres" (supplier) might still be in business and if so, how I might try to contact them? My other option is to send the watch to IWC Schaffhausen and obtain an authenticity certificate that, if I am lucky, might also result in an authentication of the gold band as well (less likely?).

Once again, I can't thank you all enough for the added commentary on this. If nothing else, it is a fascinating investigation into the past and may possibly add some historical perspective for IWC aficionados regarding the early days of the cal 852s. Cheers!

Gay Freres is no longer in business. It used to make many of the bracelets for high-end brands but was acquired by Rolex.

Regards, Michael
mfriedberg@iwcforum.com

Did Schaffhausen actually ever produce a non lugged style auto that early, though the internet crowd like to use the wording 'innovative' nowadays when chatting schaffhausen.. back then they were a different outfit (slightly behind opposed to slightly in front)...i'd be suprised if they launched that style pre '55 and would have thought if they were putting thier name to the offering then the execution would have been much finer.

Is there a trace of the wording 'Automatic' in the lower half of the dial? though watches (original) have emerged devoid of the moniker they are veryvery much the exception.

Last edited: 6 March, 2013 - 11:32

In reply to the question about a possible "Automatic" wording in the lower half of the dial, the answer is no since this watch is actually a manual winding watch. I did find evidence of one virtually identical "face" of my watch in a watch that was sold on eBay that was advertised as a 1952 IWC caliber 89 watch (with full documentation). That is also the only IWC watch of the era that I have found pictures of that only have the "even" dial numerals. Given that the caliber 89 was introduced in 1946, I am led to believe that my caliber 852 might have been an early model where the movement was installed by IWC in a pre-1952 IWC watch case. Just my guess at this time.

Here is the picture of the eBay 1952 caliber 89 watch:



The full eBay listing and description can be found here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-IWC-INTERNATIONAL-Vintage-Mens-Watch-18K-GOLD-BOMBE-LUGS-/300868269980?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D6051708554988080769%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D4%26sd%3D300864857423%26

Thank you all once again and thank you Michael for your reply re: Gay Freres

Silverkat, I don't think your watch is a manual wind watch. First, the Cal 852 was an automatic. Second, in the movement photos the large, half round metal part engraved International Watch Co Swiss looks like a rotor to me. This is the part that swings and winds the watch as your wrist moves.

If you wind the watch manually 30 turns or so, the rotor should keep it wound from daily motion of your wrist. The watch may well need cleaning and oiling for this to work properly.

Dick L.

whichwatch at roadrunner dot com

Once again, my humble admiration for all of the help that this forum offers.

Dick, I can't thank you enough for your clarification regarding my watch. I was originally misled into thinking that my caliber 852 was not automatic by the lack of the "automatic" description on the face and the eBay listing (one of the first items I found when I started my research about the watch on the net) that I referred to earlier today that had my identical face and described that watch as a manual winding watch. I just assumed that the face information would have stated "automatic" if the movement inside was automatic but I now know that the actual ebay watch was a caliber 89 (manual winding) that pre-dated my caliber 852.

After reading your explanation that all caliber 852s were automatic and reviewing your explanation about the swinging internal part, I am absolutely convinced that you and the previous comment from oneredtrim are "dead on"! This, of course, only makes my situation more puzzling since, as previously stated by oneredtrim, "though watches (original) have emerged devoid of the moniker they are veryvery much the exception".

Therefore, either I have one of those "exceptions" or ???. Does anybody know if I were to request an "authenticity" certificate from IWC, whether they might go far enough to actually establish what the facts may be behind this particular watch (given this odd configuration) or do they just address the legitimacy of the internal components but otherwise not go any further?

So far, I find myself owning an 18K gold 1952 caliber 852 automatic movement with a pre-1952 watch face that does not indicate the movement is automatic with a 1954 IWC 18K gold back cover and with an 18K gold band with a 1953 date on it. It really does seem unlikely to me (although I am absolutely a big rookie) that this watch would have been cannibalized within a year or two of its manufacture by my late step-father but I have been amazed so far at the assistance I have received and have been learning by the hour!!!!

Thank you all once again for taking up your time to try to assist me with this.
Best wishes to all.
Rob