166 Discussions and CommentsMember since July 9, 2009
A new watch came into my collection yesterday (four actually;-), from what scarce information I could find, it could be a Cal 32 (Elgin I?)...But...a few mysteries are there to be solved (by our resident experts here;-)
Firstly, it is in a 14K gold case, which was correctly stamped with the squirrel, but the 14K and the 585 stamp has been xxx´d out. I asked a few questions about it and a couple of possible answers came up.
The uniform labeling of gold and silver content was introduced in January 1888 in Germay, based on the "Law on the fineness/gold content of the gold and silver" which was passed as a law, on 16. July 1884. The 14K stamp no longer being allowed on its own.
My watchmaker suggested that the gold stamps were rendered inappropriate, thus erased or made invalid (in Switzerland?) Gold watch cases were sporadically inspected for gold content by the local assay office, if it was stamped 0,585 gold content for example, and they only found 0,584 gold content, then the stamp would be made invalid...(and surely making the case unsellable?). If stamped, the gold content may be more, but under no circumstances may the content be less.
There is no number on the movement to be found (as far as I can see), maybe there is a number under the dial?
David Seyffer was consulted, he added the fact that there is also a Cal 32 in the IWC museum without a number on the movement!!!
Here are a few pictures of the culprit to be discussed;
166 Discussions and CommentsMember since July 9, 2009
Tony, anyone can buy a run of the mill, straightforeward pocketwatch, I always seem to find the tough ones, with loads of questionmarks ;-)...a sucker for punishment!!!
2,635 Discussions and CommentsMember since Sept. 20, 2007
Jimmy, please do remain a "sucker for punishment"!
Without such enquiring minds, and folk that love a challenge, not only would life be oh so boring, but also much history and informations still to be uncovered, be lost.
I've not run up against a similar case (where asize marks were delibertly removed) and so to see, fairly professionally done too.
Real interesting story, waiting to be uncovered here - from which no doubtnwe can all learn something.
1,098 Discussions and CommentsMember since March 28, 2001
It seemd the serial number for the movements of the Elgin I were not always marked on the movement. It is very interesting, as in the sales-book this watches were marked with the serial number of the case (maybe it is still readable in your watch) but there is also not a serial number marked for the movement. I have seen this once when I was checking some information for some watches. You could numberless movements for Elgin I and, who wonders, also for the Elgin II. Maybe this is one of the reasons why we find so few Elgin II's.
Why the case marking were removed on your watch is a mystery.
regards
Ralph
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.
166 Discussions and CommentsMember since July 9, 2009
Hi Ralph, thanks for your reply. The watch has been disassembled by my watchmaker Holger, apparently there is a number under the dial. As always he has taken plenty of pictures during the revision, so when I receive them, I’ll post here. He also sent the case away for a gold/chemical analysis, so as soon as the results are back, they will also be posted.
1,910 Discussions and CommentsMember since Aug. 4, 2001
Looking forward to hear more about the life and trials of this IWC. She sure seems to have lived a checkered life and to have been around the block a couple of times. :-)
166 Discussions and CommentsMember since July 9, 2009
clepsydra Wrote:Looking forward to hear more about the life and trials of this IWC. She sure seems to have lived a checkered life and to have been around the block a couple of times. :-)
Well, the first couple of pictures reached me earlier today, as can be seen, the serial No. was on the movement,under the dial, these pictures were taken before the parts were completely disassembled and cleaned. So the watch is slowly revealing it´s interesting secrets ;-)
I was asked the following questions by my watchmaker Holger, does anyone have an answer for him? Do these watches have a specific Cal. Name (i.e. Ref No xxx)? IWC Jones Cal Henry Burns, New York B IWC Tschopp Cal Boston 20 ligne.
Firstly, it is in a 14K gold case, which was correctly stamped with the squirrel, but the 14K and the 585 stamp has been xxx´d out. I asked a few questions about it and a couple of possible answers came up.
The uniform labeling of gold and silver content was introduced in January 1888 in Germay, based on the "Law on the fineness/gold content of the gold and silver" which was passed as a law, on 16. July 1884. The 14K stamp no longer being allowed on its own.
My watchmaker suggested that the gold stamps were rendered inappropriate, thus erased or made invalid (in Switzerland?)
Gold watch cases were sporadically inspected for gold content by the local assay office, if it was stamped 0,585 gold content for example, and they only found 0,584 gold content, then the stamp would be made invalid...(and surely making the case unsellable?). If stamped, the gold content may be more, but under no circumstances may the content be less.
There is no number on the movement to be found (as far as I can see), maybe there is a number under the dial?
David Seyffer was consulted, he added the fact that there is also a Cal 32 in the IWC museum without a number on the movement!!!
Here are a few pictures of the culprit to be discussed;
Best Regards
Jimmy
Last edited: 4 March, 2013 - 19:50
clepsydra
ad fontes...
Jimmy
Without such enquiring minds, and folk that love a challenge, not only would life be oh so boring, but also much history and informations still to be uncovered, be lost.
I've not run up against a similar case (where asize marks were delibertly removed) and so to see, fairly professionally done too.
Real interesting story, waiting to be uncovered here - from which no doubtnwe can all learn something.
Best regards
Mark
Last edited: 16 April, 2013 - 00:36
It is very interesting, as in the sales-book this watches were marked with the serial number of the case (maybe it is still readable in your watch) but there is also not a serial number marked for the movement.
I have seen this once when I was checking some information for some watches.
You could numberless movements for Elgin I and, who wonders, also for the Elgin II. Maybe this is one of the reasons why we find so few Elgin II's.
Why the case marking were removed on your watch is a mystery.
regards
Ralph
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.
best Regards
Jimmy
Last edited: 7 March, 2013 - 10:43
clepsydra
ad fontes...
Last edited: 8 March, 2013 - 11:08
Well, the first couple of pictures reached me earlier today, as can be seen, the serial No. was on the movement,under the dial, these pictures were taken before the parts were completely disassembled and cleaned. So the watch is slowly revealing it´s interesting secrets ;-)
I was asked the following questions by my watchmaker Holger, does anyone have an answer for him?
Do these watches have a specific Cal. Name (i.e. Ref No xxx)?
IWC Jones Cal Henry Burns, New York B
IWC Tschopp Cal Boston 20 ligne.
Regards
Jimmy
Last edited: 10 March, 2013 - 14:03
There is no name here like Jones, Burns, Boston. "Just" a Calibre 32 Elgin I.
Regards, Michael
mfriedberg@iwcforum.com
Ralph
There is no time in the now it's time for a watch.